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Author Replies
SteveG
05/23/05 10:37 AM  
Roeselare experiment
Over the last couple of swaps I've been lucky enough to have a few samples sent to me made with this yeast. The beers were not bad, actually one that had an extra 6 or 8 months on it was pretty convincing as a Flanders Red, but mostly the beers left me with the impression that it was not meeting its potential (except maybe the older one). My general comments were that I think one generation is insufficient for this yeast to really start making something one might expect given the yeasts source. Enough talk, I went out and bought some, worked it up a bit in a 3 gallon extract starter then pitched it in a real beer yesterday. When that is fermented out I'm handing it off to a brewing bud then he is handing it back - afterwhich I have 3 more serial batches planned. The first beer is blonde, the second and third will be coppery (both the same recipe, one bottled one kegged) and the last will basically be a stout wort. I'm naming these Rodenblonde, Rodenbruin and Rodenblack respectively!

Anyone else have experiences here they would like to share?

Bill S
05/23/05 09:54 PM  
Re: Roeselare experiment
I just started my series with the yeast:

1st Beer - 1.040 Half wheat/half pils "Berliner" weiss. Pitch 1/2 of 1 liter starer in 5 gallons. Ferment for 36 hours at 100F (LACTO!!!) then cool to 75-80F and pitch rest of starter (I was concerned the 100F might impact the other yeast). It is about 2 weeks old and will rack in two more weeks for beer number two. Smells nice.

2nd Beer - will be 1.060 ish Oud Bruin. lots of dark munich and medium crystal.

Let you know how things progress.

Bill

SteveG
05/24/05 06:47 AM  
Re: Roeselare experiment
Hi Bill, it is always great to know that there is someone else out there doing what I'm doing! Actually that is a little scarry, our approach to these first two beers is amazingly similar. Love to do some swapping in 4 to 6 months. I think this yeast has a lot of unrealized potential that I hope to tap.

Oh, speaking of tap, do you plan a bottle vs. keg exploration here? My beers #2 & #3 are going to be the same recipe and process but with different packaging. Great to hear from you, keep in touch! Steve

Joelle
05/24/05 03:37 PM  
Re: Roeselare experiment
Dan and I are planning to make a "Flanders Red" ala Rodenbach Grand Cru soon. Here's an old post from the lambic digest written by a guy we went on a tour of Belgium with back in 2000. He seems to have gotten some pretty specific info on the process. We'll probably shoot for a wort of 13.5 Plato. Wonder what the three grains that are used besides the corn grits might be... I'm thinking possibly Belgian Pale Malt, Munich or Aromatic Malt and Crystal Malt. What do you guys think?

Joelle

http://ww2.babblebelt.com/stories/rodenbach.html

matt dinges
05/24/05 08:00 PM  
Re: Roeselare experiment
I'll be jumping on this boat sometime in June as well...I have heard that it gets "funkier" upon repeated pitchings...I plan on doing an XX Bitter type of beer, then a porter, then an amberish malty beer but will include some corn, and lastly something that will hopefully resemble Oerbier.

Can't wait to get it going.

Cheers

Aaron
05/24/05 10:33 PM  
Re: Roeselare experiment
I haven't tried the Roeselare strain specifically but three years ago I tried to crop yeast from several older bottles of Oerbier. The first batch seemed to work the best. Successive batches became more and more...well undrinkable. It wasn't just the tartness but the flavor of the tartness. It's hard to explain.

Steve, your experiment is very intriguing. I'll stay tuned for the results.

Joelle, In one of Jacksons books he claims that 80% of the grist is two or six-row winter barley and vienna malt. Not sure of the percentages but I'd go with 75% Belgian 2-row and 5% Vienna. The other 20% is the corn grits.

Aaron

Tomme Arthur
05/25/05 12:52 AM  
Re: Roeselare experiment
Joelle,

I have the Rodenbach disertation and it clearly states in the research that both beers are brewed to the following recipe.

60% Barley

20% Corn

20% Vienna

We brewed the Le Woody to this spec and got a blonde beer. Your mileage may vary with a "robust" boil at home. The red seems to come from the oak and long aging in oak would be required. Cheating on that yields something more akin to Petrus Aged Pale.

Let me know if you need more help.

Tomme

SteveG
05/25/05 07:56 AM  
Ah, wood - the OTHER dark grain!
Jeez, I never even thought of that. Looking back at a Scotch whiskey event I attended in NYC 6ish years ago I remember John Hansell describing freshly distilled whiskey as being clear like water, the caramel color comes from contact with the wood. Duh Steveo, here I am Mr. tequila and it didn't occur to me that the difference between clear blancho and coppery anjeo tequilas is time in the barrel. You could approximate the color shift with grains, but how could that be anywhere near the big picture impact that comes from exposure to oak? Seems like that would be a superfiscial solution, like comparing Alaskan king crab with sea-legs cause the look somewhat similar. I wonder if, over time, the stuff in the wood that contributes the color becomes depleted, diminishing the darkening potential?
Aaron
05/25/05 10:19 AM  
Re: Roeselare experiment
Joelle,

I'd believe Tomme. He's the man!

Aaron

Joelle
05/25/05 03:04 PM  
Re: Roeselare experiment
Thanks for the input guys! We'll go with Tomme's grain bill the first time around with a longer boil than usual and see what we get. I'm sure it will be tasty no matter how it looks.

Joelle

Bill S
05/26/05 06:38 AM  
Re: Roeselare experiment
The part that will change the color is the oxidation.

Steve - I think I will bottle but I am debating. At least half in keg is EASY. Also, I would like to see if cold aging the Berliner will cause it to mellow (one I did 2 years ago with no boil was a bit rough - this time I boiled to avoid the DMS issues).<<>>

SteveG
05/26/05 07:26 AM  
Re: Roeselare experiment
<<one I did 2 years ago with no boil was a bit rough >>

Sorry Bill - no boil? Are you saying you produced wort and pitched yeast without boiling?

Bill S
05/26/05 06:01 PM  
Re: Roeselare experiment
Yes,

Traditional Beliner is no boil... and no easy cooling ... just mash for HOURS (like 6) and then sparge with very hot (or boiling water).

Marc Sadam has posted some good material on the HBD about it.

Bill S
05/26/05 06:06 PM  
Re: Roeselare experiment
Steve G,

Do you have a copy of the Bret flavor paper or AAR (Rodenbach Disertation)? Do you lurk on the pLabic digest (plambic@neap.net)? If not, I can send you (and others) the papers in PDF and recommend you listen/lurk to pLambic. Much discussed in the world of acid/sour ales (not just lambic)... Raj Apte is a common poster and he has some good thoughts on the topic.

SebastianP
05/26/05 08:47 PM  
PDF papers
Bill S,

by Brett flavor paper do you mean the "What is Brett Flavor?", by Licker, Acree and Henick-Kling? I have this but do not have the Rodenbach dissertation. I would definitely appreciate a copy of it.

I am on the email list, though I can't seem to open it right now.

And I second lurking on the plambic digest, there are some interesting posts there.

Bill S
05/26/05 10:24 PM  
Re: Roeselare experiment / PDF Papers
If this dosen't work contact me at (wesolomon@comcast.net). Note I will be gone this weekend so I may be a little late in responding.

Acid Ales Paper (Rodenbach)

http://home.comcast.net/~wesolomon/Ch_1-3.pdf

http://home.comcast.net/~wesolomon/Ch_4-5.pdf

http://home.comcast.net/~wesolomon/appendices.pdf

Brett Flavor Paper

http://home.comcast.net/~wesolomon/ACS_Brett.pdf

Bill S
05/26/05 10:38 PM  
Re: Roeselare experiment
This is the quoute from Jay Hearsh and Peter Bouckaert

(http://www.brewery.org/brewery/library/Rodnbch.html)

"Three kinds of malt are used to make the Rodenbach beers. All of them are colour malts. Two are very slightly heated in a kiln, while one is shortly roasted in a drum. Different mixtures of this malts are used to make the two kinds of brews.

As starch adjunct corngrits is used in amounts around 10-12% for economical and taste aspects. Beer brewed with some starch adjunct gives a lighter, more digestable beer Almost all Belgian beers use some corngrits or rice.

The hops used for Rodenbach are Belgian bitter hops. Belgium isn't a big hop producing country, but the main hop area, Poperinge, isn't so far...Rodenbach, being a sour beer, doesn't need a lot of bitterness: 14-16 EBU. Varieties of Northern Brewer, Brewers Gold, Target and Yeoman are used."

I am not sure if this quite the same as the quoted % from Tomme.

Tim L
05/27/05 11:25 PM  
Re: Roeselare experiment
Concering yeast harvesting. This has been debated on AHA Tecktalk. Do you all take your yeast off the top or the bottom? I'm wanting to harvest yeast from my experiment. I discussed earlier.

Im still going to try a different brown Ale to Ole Bruin route. It will be interesting. I will be intersted in how things go with the Roselare. Keep us up to date.

SteveG
06/06/05 09:34 AM  
Re: Roeselare experiment
The Roeselare experiement is progressing with some odd turns.

Firstly, beer #1 - Rodenblonde - was still reasonably active as of Saturday, nearly 2 full weeks since pitching. 35 seconds in between "blorps". I racked and harvested the slurry in a sterile eldermyer flask. The gravity at the time reflected a beer still active, 1017 (from 1058).

The really weird part though was the flavor of the 2 week old beer, it could have passed for an abbey single. The aroma had a hint of what I would have expected, but the taste was a bit "generically Belgian". I am not super worried about that, I know it takes that other stuff more time than saccromyces to do its job and there is plenty left in the wort to sustain more activity. But I would have expected some sign that a sour beer strain was employed. The excessivly typical Belgian beer flavor of what I have makes me suspect that this is not really a Rodenbach sample, but a yeast blend designed to approximate the original. Does anyone know for a fact if this one is authentic?

SteveG
07/19/05 11:18 AM  
Experiment update
1: the "Rodenblonde" is no longer a really nice abbey style single. It has however turned into my most convincing saison ever. I won a BOS once with a saison, this one beats that. The Brett has reared its head and provided a hint of roughness, the sourness is subtile and comes off as being "lemony". Please God, let this one stop now!

Al returned the slurry to me, it was 200ml of pure yeast though he did say his aerating seemed to eliminate the lactic bacteria. The rodenblonde sample had some budding sourness though, Al suggested blending his slurry - now with an additional 3 generations on it - with some dregs form the rodenblonde keg. Did that.

First, the yeast was absolute rocket fuel. The thing was active very quickly, fermented like a tropical storm then died back after > 48 hours. It spent the next few days slowly pushing out CO2 about every 20 seconds. Racked it Sunday (in prep for a follow up wort) and found the beer to be just a little sour. Actually it was similar in sourness to samples (brewers have mailed to me in swaps) I've had made from this yeast, encouraging after 1 week.

My second batch since the hand-back has just completed the throes of fermentation (same as the previous, that one will be kegged, this one bottled), Saturday rodenblack comes to be.


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