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Author Replies
Aaron
05/24/05 10:17 PM  
WLP 565 Saison I yeast
Well I gave this strain a try in a Saison after reading Phil Markowski's book. My batch size is 12 gallons. Recipe was 21# Pilsen, 2# wheat, 2# Munich, Mt Hood and Sterling hops, cumin bitter orange peel and star anise. Transfer temp was 80 degree as recommended by Phil. Original gravity was 14.7P. Three days into it so far so good. Temp still between 76 and 80. I was planning on keeping the fermentation temperature high until the gravity drops to between 2-3P. I was wondering if anyone else has had experience with this strain. Any info or comments would be appreciated.

Aaron

SebastianP
05/25/05 07:48 PM  
Re: WLP 565 Saison I yeast
Here is a post I made to the HBD on this yeast. If you have any questions about this yeast let me know.

***************************

First off I highly recommend that you read Phil Markowski's (I hope I spelled that right) book Farmhouse Ales. It goes a bit into using this ideosynchratic yeast that is supposed to be one of the Dupont strains.

I love using this yeast, when used correctly (most people don't, or in the case of commercial breweries can't because of economic reasons) this yeast will produce a dry, spicy tasty Saison that despite its super low finishing gravities has a fair amount of body to it.

I have been using this yeast for a couple of years, and I have never had this yeast finish above a 1.005, and the only reason that particular beer finished out that high was because it started at 1.096. Typically I get final gravities of between 1.001 and 1.003. Yes this yeast is a voracious eater of all types of sugars, including more complex ones that you would not expect ale yeast to be able to digest. As others have suggested this yeast can be sluggish, especially if fermented below 75*F, but just give this yeast time and you will by duly rewarded with a tasty, traditional Dupont style Saison.

I typically try to ferment above 75*F, and have gone as high as 90*F for primary fermentation. Supposedly Dupont ferments well into the 90s during primary fermentation. Also this yeast does require a long primary fermentation, and even at the elevated temperatures I have not had any trouble with the yeast breaking down and contributing off flavors. I usually primary for a minimum of one month with this yeast, and if it does not get into the 80s I typically wait a few more weeks.

I should not that I do use a cold conditioning period of about two weeks or more with all of my beers, so this might help smooth out any rough edges, but I have not noticed any particularly noticeable off flavors from this yeast when coming out of the primary.

I highly recommend this yeast, it produces wonderfully characterful saison beers. This yeast is quite a bit different than your average yeast, and many people have not used it to its full potential, because of its unique requirements.

I should note that I would be wary of bottling a beer that finishes above 1.010 with this yeast if those bottles are going to be stored warm, this yeast is quite voracious and will eventually want to ferment the beer out very dry. Just ask Tomme Arthur at Pizza Port, both the SPF 18 & 45 turned into quite the gushers after a few months in the bottle.

Cheers,

SebastianP

Aaron
05/26/05 11:25 AM  
Re: WLP 565 Saison I yeast
Sabastian,

Thank you that was just the type of reassurance I needed.

5 days into primary it's down to 5.5P but fermentation has slowed considerably. Fermentation temerature is 78F. We'll see where it goes. Patiences, young Jedi, patiences.

Aaron

Aaron
06/09/05 04:36 PM  
Re: WLP 565 Saison I yeast
18 days into it and everything is just as expected. Gravity down to 2.5P, temperature has been lowered to 60. Fermentation has all but stopped.

Aaron

SebastianP
06/09/05 08:04 PM  
Re: 18 days in
It is not even close to being done. Sounds like you will need another couple of weeks at warm (70*F +) temperatures. Remember, your beer will not be done until the gravity is below 1*P.

Trust me, I know that it goes against standard practice, but I speak from long experience with this yeast.

cheers.

sebastian

Aaron
06/09/05 10:31 PM  
Re: WLP 565 Saison I yeast
Sorry, I meant the primary fermentation had all but stopped. I planned on leaving it in the secondary between 60-65 for at least a month. I'll raise that a bit and keep on checking the gravity. I admit it will be hard to accept a final gravity of <1P but everything I've read leads me to that number. Then I plan to bottle most of it in corked champagne bottles after I add a fresh dose of yeast and a small amount of priming sugar, probably dissolved candi sugar. I plan on raising the temp of the bottles to between 70-75 for the tertiary fermentation.

Sebastian, Thanks for your input, it is greatly appreciated. And yes, this yeast is very different from anything else I've used.

Aaron

Jeff "TruthBrew"
07/20/05 01:22 PM  
Re: WLP 565 Saison I yeast
Sebastian, do you normally bottle your saisons? Do you find it neccesary to add more yeast at bottle time or is there still enough in suspension?
SebastianP
07/20/05 01:35 PM  
Re: WLP 565 Saison I yeast & Bottling
I have not had a problem with bottle conditioning, and one batch I even lagered for 4 months b/c I was too busy to bottle it.
SebastianP
07/20/05 02:51 PM  
Re: WLP 565 Saison I yeast
<<I have not had a problem with bottle conditioning, and one batch I even lagered for 4 months b/c I was too busy to bottle it.>>

I guess I should be more clear, I have not had to add extra yeast at bottling.

cheers

Jeff "TruthBrew"
07/20/05 06:24 PM  
Re: WLP 565 Saison I yeast
I understood what you meant, but thanks! =)

Ipaguy
07/27/05 01:11 PM  
Re: WLP 565 Saison I yeast
Sebastian,

Some things are a bit unclear to me. What is your procedure after the 1-month or longer primary? Transfer to secondary then go by gravity to know when to bottle? Are you still warm conditioning in secondary before you cold-condition? Are you cold-conditioning before bottling? What temp. are you cold-conditioning at? Why cold-condition at all, as it seems Dupont mostly warm conditions (see below).

In Farmhouse Ales Phil said that Dupont transfers to a "cool room" (65-70F) for secondary after a one-week primary at very high temps. (85-95F), then after 10-14 days in secondary the gravity drops to about 1-1.2P and most of the yeast is settled out. Then they centrifuge, add priming sugar and fresh yeast, and bottle. After that, they warm condition in bottles (placed on their sides) at 74-75F for 6-8 wks. He also mentioned that Dupont feels the extended warm aging is needed to develop the signature character of Vieille Provision.

SebastianP
07/27/05 01:49 PM  
Re: WLP 565 Saison I yeast
Ipaguy had some questions.

The thing you have to remember when refering to the Dupont practice is that they use a multistrain yeast. By using WLP565 you are only using one strain of their yeast so the performance is not going to follow that of Dupont's, but you can get a very similar flavor profile.

After I primary I check the gravity if it is sufficiently low I will usually cold condition for two weeks or so (down to about 40*F) in the carboy, and then bottle. If it is not low enough I will do a warm secondary for a week or so longer.

Why do I do this? Well I do it with all of my beers, I find that I get much better integrated flavors and also it helps to clear the beer. This is just my SOP, no need to do it if you don't want to.

Ipaguy
07/27/05 04:24 PM  
Re: WLP 565 Saison I yeast
Thanks for the response. However, isn't whether the Dupont strain truly a multi-strain yeast debatable? At least that was what I came away with from Farmhouse Ales.
SebastianP
07/27/05 07:10 PM  
Re: WLP 565 Saison I yeast
<<However, isn't whether the Dupont strain truly a multi-strain yeast debatable? >>

While it may be debatable, In my experience a beer fermented with the temperature and time profile that you laid out above will not work with WLP565, But that is only my experience and I have only used the strain all of about 10 times, so take it for what it is worth.

cheers

Ipaguy
07/27/05 08:13 PM  
Re: WLP 565 Saison I yeast
Thanks for your input. You have more direct experience than I with this yeast (first-time user right now), which is definitely very valuable. I'm just going mainly by what I've read at this stage.

What kind of mashing schedule do you typically use for your Saisons? Are you attaining these low FG's regardless of grain bill and/or mashing procedure?

Cheers!

SebastianP
07/27/05 09:24 PM  
Re: WLP 565 Saison I yeast
I have actually seen little interaction between mashing schedule and FG. I have mashed between 150*F and 156*F and the difference in F.G. have not been noticeable.
TJThresh
07/28/05 07:54 AM  
Re: WLP 565 Saison I yeast
Hey gang,

First post here. What a great site. Anyway, I have a saison using this yeast in primary right now. About a week and a half in. Most of the yeast has fallen out now. I'll check the gravity probably Saturday. Hoping its attenuated enough. I need to get it conditioned for a competition in January.

What do you guys think about using the yeast cake in a Dubbel or Tripel?

brad
08/05/05 02:30 AM  
Re: WLP 565 Saison I yeast
Ok the first saison of the season. I used the Saision DuPont Clone base but instead of bitter orange peel I use fresh grapefruit zest and tyme. It turned out OK but nothing special. I acutuall think it was brewer error.

On that yeast cake I pictched an SPF 8 clone. The recipe was in Zymurgy a few months ago. I highly recommend it.

Next up is a Russian River Erudition clone.

Brad

SebastianP
08/05/05 02:41 AM  
Re: WLP 565 Saison I yeast
Reply to brad<< I used the Saision DuPont Clone base but instead of bitter orange peel I use fresh grapefruit zest and tyme>>

You must have use those clone brews books. I still have not quite figured out how two authors could have done so little research, especially into some of the world class beers that they are trying to clone. The formulations for many of the beers that they supposedly clone are readily availible, I just don't get what they were thinking.

sorry for the rant, yes most of the recipes make good beer even if they have no basis in reality.

Chet
08/05/05 10:19 AM  
Re: WLP 565 Saison I yeast
Belated welcome, TJ!

I would think a saison yeast cake for a dubbel or trippel would make an "Imperial" saison - although there are several examples of higher gravity saisons.

A low ferm temp would reduce the saison characteristics somewhat I would think.

brad
08/05/05 10:54 AM  
Re: WLP 565 Saison I yeast
I believe the recipe was from that book you mention. Sometimes people get to caught up in the recipe for clones. Its a clone it is not supposed to be the exact recipe. The goal is to produce an end product that is similar. It would be very difficult for a homebrwer to try and produce the unique envrionment, fementation and multi-strain yeast that Du Pont uses. So you have to fudge it a little with the use of a spice or something like that.

This is a good article on how some people creat clone recipies.

http://www.beeradvocate.com/news/stories_read/613/

Brad

blktre
08/08/05 11:54 PM  
Re: WLP 565 Saison I yeast
Hi guys.....

My question about the 565 is pitch rate. Will a 2000ml starter be enuff to pitch into 10g. of a 1.070 wert? This is my first time brewing a Saison and am really excited......thanks in advance!! Cheers....

SteveG
08/09/05 07:37 AM  
Re: WLP 565 Saison I yeast
Personally I'm a real wacko for starter sizes. When I get a yeast I plan at least 3 beers made on 3 consecutive weekends so I can rack and pour new wort right on the yeast cake - in effect using a 5 gallon starter for a 5 gallon batch. I plan a lower gravity beer for the first one, but sometimes even that one deserves more yeast than a poutch or tube can provide. For that I boil up a can of extract and make a 3 gallon starter.

Realistically many homebrewers don't make any starter, which I have always believed is a mistake. So 2 litres is better than many would do. Personally, I think its more than a little light for 5 gallons of a high gravity wort though. Would it be possible to make 5 gallons of something lighter first, then pitch the resulting yeast cake into your 1070 saison?

blktre
08/10/05 09:12 AM  
Re: WLP 565 Saison I yeast
<<>>So 2 litres is better than many would do. Personally, I think its more than a little light for 5 gallons of a high gravity wort though. Would it be possible to make 5 gallons of something lighter first, then pitch the resulting yeast cake into your 1070 saison?

<<>>

I ended up brewing a smaller OG beer of 1.058 and stepped up the starter to 3/4g and pitched the starter at hi krausen. I had fermentation on 10.5g in 2 hrs. 12 hrs later its going nicely at 80*.......according to Sebastion, this isnt a bad ferment temp for this yeast. Ill be pitching on the cake a higer OG Saison next time around..........cheers

matt dinges
08/12/05 01:40 PM  
Re: WLP 565 Saison I yeast
I've always heard that 10X is the optimal step size for yeast. From smack pack/vial, that would mean the first step would be 2L (~1/2gal), and the next step from there would be 20L...going from 2L to 3L if that is what you did, isn't considered "optimal"...although I'm sure some reprodcution occurred.

A guy in my brew club left his fermenter in his garage for 10 days with this yeast...fermented it about 95*F that whole time. His beer was pretty darn good.

And I agree with Sebastian on those clone brews books, especially for Belgian beers!

Cheers

matt

Benoit
08/15/05 08:47 AM  
Re: WLP 565 Saison I yeast
Greetings everyone.

First message for me too on this forum. Great chat so far conserning this yeast strain.

For the records, I got to admit too, that I'm a bit worried. My 2 liters starter was quite agressive, and my 18 liter (~ 5 gallon) batch started within an hour. Wow! I did an extra oxynation + some yeast nutriment and pithed at 31c (89F). Then, after 48 hours, the foam flatten into a protein-like brown crust. Flow thourgh the airlock was steady, though. Now, after a week, it went down from OG1.070 to 1.022 (moved from 1.026 to 1.022 in 4 days)

As I said, this is for the records, in case someone like me is looking for some info about this yeast (I'm sure many will, since Saison seems to be the trend now for last couple of months). I won't panik, and will leave this one in primary and I'll see what happens within the next month -and I'll stop opening the lid 2 times a day!

Benoit

Montreal,Quebec

Benoit
08/19/05 02:06 PM  
Re: WLP 565 Saison I yeast
well... didn't have enough patience. After 5 days of stagnation. I've decided to transfer and switch to WL's Golden Ale to finish.

I kept my Saison slurry, and I'll give it a second try with a lower OG beer.

Benoit

ErikH
10/23/05 01:26 PM  
heating methods for high fermentation temp
Hi folks -

First post here! Really enjoying this thread - the body of knowledge and experience is quite impressive! I am a mostly malt extract homebrewer in NYC about to attempt a Dupont clone from a recipe I cobbled together from various sources, as follows (5 gal):

Grain/Extract

1.0 lb Belgian Dingemanís Pilsen Malt

7.0 lbs Extra Light Liquid Malt Extract

Hops(for 60 min. boil time)

Bittering @ 60 min: 3.0 oz Kent Golding(pellets) / 0.5 oz Styrian Goldings (pellets)

Flavor @ 15 min: none

Aroma @ 00 min: 1.0 oz Kent Goldings (leaf) / 0.5 oz Styrian Goldings (pellets)

Dry Hop: none

Total Hops: 3.0 oz Kent Goldings (pellets) / 1.0 oz Kent Goldings (leaf ) / 1.0 oz Styrian Goldings (pellets)

White Labs WLP565 Belgian Saison I

Anyhow, after reading Phil M's book, I am concerned about achieving the required fermentation temps for this to finish out, and while I have some Eau de Vie yeast as a back-up, I'd really prefer to ride things out with the Dupont yeast. Lazy so-and-so that I am, I failed to get my act together to do this during the August days when my shoebox apartment was clocking in regularly at 90 degrees ambient temp. So here I am in October with 68 degrees being the norm and I am trying to figure out how to kick this thing up 15-20 degrees.

A friend recommended purchasing an aquarium heater to do so, an I am wondering if anyone has tried this and has thoughts on it, or perhaps alternate temperature regulation methods. I live in a small space and am not particularly handy, so I'm hoping for something straightforward. Right now, the aquarium heater seems pretty good. Naturally, I will sterilize it before inserting, etc. Here's the model I am considering using, also with a thermometer to monitor temp. It is a cable heater:

http://www.hydor.it/inglese/hydrokab.htm

or alternately, this heating pad, which I could place under my carboy and eliminate any contact with the beer:

http://www.hydor.it/inglese/caliento.htm

I already use an aquarium stone for aeration, so this seemed like a logical area check out. I'd very much appreciate any thoughts folks might have!

Aaron
10/24/05 12:16 PM  
Re: WLP 565 Saison I yeast
I use a solid plastic heating pad

connected to a temperature controller (http://www.morebeer.com/product.html?product_id=16663)

and ferment inside an old refrigerator.

Keeps everything between 90-95 for as long as you want.

You might try this to

http://www.morebeer.com/product.html?product_id=16674

Don't know about the aquarium heater.

Cheers,

Aaron

ErikH
10/24/05 08:38 PM  
Re: WLP 565 Saison I yeast
Thanks, Aaron - that looks like a pretty darn good set up. I just might indulge in one . . . meanwhile I did check out a flexible mat-type heater from the pet store and it seems very similar, though only 25W and withough a control method. The guy at the store said it achieves about an 85 deg. temp for terrariums, so at the very least I'd think I'd be relatively safe using it and judging temp from my own thermometer in the wort.

On the yeast anxiety side, never having cultured from a bottle before, I gave in to temptation and got a 750ml bottle of Saison Dupont and have started to try to culture the yeast. So if it works I'll have that in addition to the WLP565. Additionally, I found that there's a spot right on top of my water heater that has a temp range of 77-81 degrees or so, where I've placed the culturing experiment - no activity there yet, but it's only been 12 hours. Making a starter for the WLP565 tonight too, to step up once before pitching probably Thurs. AM.

And, on the selective memory side, I checked my records and found that I had in fact used the WLP565 for a Saison I made four years back, which (without the benefit of all this recent info) I had been quite happy to bottle when it had gone from 1.066 down to 1.007 after 3 wks at 67 deg. F - about the lowest terminal gravity I had ever achieved. And then I couldn't figure out why it soon became massively overcarbonated in the bottle!

I'll keep you posted on my heater strategy selection and the resulting fermentation progress.

ErikH
10/27/05 10:08 PM  
Re: WLP 565 Saison I yeast: sulfur?
Hey Folks -

Wanted to give you an update on the WLP565 temp maintenance. I did in fact purchase an 11"x17" "terrarium heater" flexible plastic sheet, which I found slowly raised the temperature of 5 gal of water in my glass carboy to about 82 deg from the 68 deg ambient temp in my place.

However, as the warm spot over my heater is in a similar range anyhow, I went with that. I did use the pad to warm up the wort after I overzealously cooled it too much prior to pitching, though - maybe it will be useful in the future.

Anyhow, after pitching the WLP565 (after stepping up from 10 oz to 50 oz starter) late last night I was pleased this morning to see a healthy 1" cap of foam on top of it and evident, roiling fermentation in progress within. I came home this evening, though, to find little activity, the kraeusen dissipated, and a strong sulfury/hydrogen sulfide odor. A thin light-colored layer atop the sediment made me wonder if the yeast had flocculated out. Temp is 78 degrees, so I am a bit concerned. I expected that 18 hours in I would see a massive head of foam pumping rhythmically out my blow-off hose.

I'd appreciate any feedback you folks might have. As an aside, after 3 days my Saison Dupont starter from the bottle began to show activity, so I stepped it up to 8oz or so late last night. It has a slight butterscotchy aroma and a slightly tart, beer-y taste with a green apple-y edge to it. I am highly tempted to pitch this. Thoughts?

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