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Bill S
06/01/05 08:59 PM  
Lets Talk Oud Bruin Recipes
Ok,

Here's my plan for an oud bruin...

OG 1.060 (15P)

Dark Munich (10L) 41%

Pale Malt 41%

Cara Aroma (120L) 3.5%

Crystal 80L 3.5%

Special B (100l) 3.5%

Melanoidan 3.5%

Belgian Biscuit 4%

Mash at 150F

17 IBU Fuggles

Repitch Roselare and ferment at 75F

YES, I want it sweet and sour with medium body and rich malty character...

Any thoughts?

Chet
06/01/05 09:51 PM  
Re: Lets Talk Oud Bruin Recipes
I'm not 100% sure on this, but you may want to mash at a higher temp to create more unfermentables - unfermentable by the yeast that is - fair game for the wild yeast/bacteria to munch on for souring...

SteveG
06/02/05 03:55 PM  
Re: Lets Talk Oud Bruin Recipes
My comment is also not backed by 100% confidence, but I think the way to really get the sweet/sour balance (I assume you mean as in the OLD Goudenband) is via blending. I'm with Chet on the effects of bacteria ... good luck stopping them! My first go at an oud bruin was a very malty 1080 wort except I went for a higher conversion temperature, the recipe direction was in line with yours. 8 months later there was nothing left - no malt, no body, I was stunned. I pitched lambic strains into it, I wonder just how different Roeselare is.

I also remember once Don Feinburg explaining that Rodenbach killed off the yeast at some point. I think left to its own devices this yeast will deny you the balance you are seeking.

One other tidbit - if Goudenband is your target. So Leifmans had this oud bruin, its was called Goudenband, right? Wrong! Leifmans had another beer in their lineup specifically called Leifmans Oud Bruin. The label was similar in some design aspects to Goudenband but a red color scheme, and Goudenband did not say "oud bruin" on the label. If that was their oud bruin, then what exactly was Goudenband? Hummm....

Bill S
06/02/05 05:06 PM  
Re: Lets Talk Oud Bruin Recipes - WILD BREWS
Ok,

On the issue of the recipe, I plan on cheating and consuming in less than 8 months... may have to blend to get sour balance.

Separate Issue:

Just received my copy of "Wild Brews". Looks nice; just started reading. Of interest are many unique recipes in back - normally I am not impressed by belgian sour recipes (how tough is the recipe for lambic?) but Jeff offers some good ideas.

Sean Paxton
06/02/05 06:11 PM  
Re: Lets Talk Oud Bruin Recipes
Hey Bill! So funny, I thought of starting this thread too.

What I’ve found frustrating is, there isn’t a lot of info (in English) on this style. I am very excited about the new book in the Belgian Series “Wild Brews” by Jeff Sparrow that comes out on the 15th. I hoping to get some more insight on the mashing schedules and that sweet/sour complexity information.

Below is my last brew recipe:

Oud Bruin brewed on 5/31/05

6 # Belgian Munich

3 # Belgian Pils

1 # Belgian Aromatic

.5 # Cara-Vienna

2 Oz de-bittered Roast

24 Oz of Turbinado Sugar

1 Oz Special B

2 Oz Hallertaur (2.9%) @ 60 Min

1 Oz Hallertaur (2.9%) @ 30 Min

Roeselare yeast 3763.

Mashed at 156 for 40 minutes

Mashout at 170 for 15 minutes

Boil: 90 minute

OG 1.056

IBU’s 11.73%

In primary @ 74 degrees

The only reason I didn’t do a step mash was after more research, I saw a trend with many Belgian Breweries that only do a single infusion mash. So, why not try it? It was nice and malty, maybe a tad bit heavy on the roast, would reduce it next time to 1 oz.

I have another Bruin that I brewed 6 months ago. I did a step mash and a similar recipe (adapted from Mosher’s recipe), adding 40 oz of frozen organic raspberries, 2 cups of red raspberry syrup (only red raspberry juice and sugar), and 2 Oz of toasted French Oak chips to the secondary. I used the Lueven Pale Ale (3538) yeast and have had ok results. I was surprised how dry it finished and the malt characteristic has almost disappeared. This yeast also lacks the sour element, but added a nice spice complexity. This is were blending comes in, as Steve mentioned.

One article I read talked about making three different oud bruins, one for malt, one for sour and one for fruit. Then to blend to get the complexity you want. I could see taking this further and add the ageing element to get the vinous qualities out too… And by using different yeasts in each brew to add in the formation of certain style components. If you brewed a sour batch using a higher mash temp and a 3763 Roeselare Yeast or a combination of 4335 Lactobacillus & 3463 Forbidden Fruit Yeast and aged for 18-24 months, then brewed Fruit batch with cherries (and pits) or raspberries and used the 3463 Forbidden Fruit Yeast or 3522 Belgian Adrennes yeast and then brewed a malty batch and pitched a 3538 Luevan yeast and aged for 8-12 months. Any thoughts?

Here is a link to my homebrew club and the info I was able to find on Oud Bruins and the beers of Flanders: http://www.bayareabrewcrew.com/calendar/2005-03/

Looking forward to seeing this thread grow

Sean

Tim L
06/13/05 06:04 AM  
Re: Lets Talk Oud Bruin Recipes
I haven't made it yet.

So far:

6.6# Amber LME

1.4# Wheat LMW (Kicker)

1# Special B

.25 Carafoam

.25 Chocolate(or Roasted Barley)

I had Pearle but I think I'll change that to Hallertau or EKG/Fuggles

Yeast

1338& Lactobacillicus Delbrukii Wyeast

Possibly some Repitched Follie from Brassarie Vapour

It will be interesting!!

I estimate SG 1.060

SteveG
06/15/05 10:46 AM  
Re: Lets Talk Oud Bruin Recipes
<<Yeast

1338& Lactobacillicus Delbrukii Wyeast>>

So when do these innoculations take the dive?

Tim L
06/20/05 10:41 PM  
Re: Lets Talk Oud Bruin Recipes
Just getting over a hectic week & the Flu. Sorry for the late reply. Wyeast said both at the same time. But I'm leaning more to adding the Lacto in the secondary. I want to get the rich maltiness out of the 1338 first. Plus I'm a little worried about which might overpower the other in the sugar battle.
Tim L
06/20/05 10:46 PM  
Re: Lets Talk Oud Bruin Recipes
The Follie got truely infected. Little black & white fuzzy dots. Man, you think you have everything sterile. I slipped up somewhere.
MIKE W
01/05/06 04:10 AM  
Re: Lets Talk Oud Bruin Recipes
I see this subject hasn't been adresses for some time....

I may have to post a new thread....

SEAN! I saw those ramblings of yours!

SteveG
01/05/06 06:59 AM  
Re: Lets Talk Oud Bruin Recipes
I learned a lesson on this stuff ages ago I'll share. You can develope a complex recipe but I think you'll find in many cases the wild bacteria blows through the taste and body you'd expect from all that malt. IMO it's a waste of time to plan this around the normal character you'd expect to get from Munich and Aromatic and crystal malts. The exception, from what I can see, is the effect of dark malts. My last one I did a cold mash of the dark grains and their effect is still there. So how does one get that nice balance Goudenband USED to have?

Blend.

Liefmans made Goudenband, but that was not their oud bruin. Liefmans oud bruin had that slot, it was unblended. Goudenband, their good one, was a blend. Rodenbach is blended, even La Folie is. So my advice is to save your spiffy grains for a fermentation agent that will respect them. Make your sour beer, kill the bacteria when its done and blend with an unsoured beer - that has been made with a well designed grain bill.

Chet
01/05/06 08:05 AM  
Re: Lets Talk Oud Bruin Recipes
One of the comments I got on my Flemish Red (it was in the sour swap awhile back) was that it was too thin.

This was in the Indiana State Fair (it took a third place, pats self on back ;) the judge was Jeff Sparrow of Wild Brews).

He commented on increasing the alcohol level to increase the body and improve the sweet/sour balance. iirc, it finished at about 6% abv and 1.004 fg, fwiw.

The next sour beer I try, I plan on shooting for about 8% - higher than most commercial examples, but it's worth a shot.

SteveG
01/05/06 10:02 AM  
Re: Lets Talk Oud Bruin Recipes
Chet, let me regale you of a tale of my first attempt at an oud bruin. It was back in 1995, I was motivated by the delicious Stille Nacht - high garvity and sour. So I made me a 1080 wort with no shortage of Munich and crystal malts. Two years later it had no malt character or body whatsoever. I was stunned.

I remember the night back in the 90s that the Old Bay here in NJ got what they claimed was the first cask of Fullers ESB to be tapped in the states. They got Sir Anthony Fuller (I think it was Anthony) to be present. I remember him commenting about how inferior the regular kegged version was. They couldn't get the same body level so they upped the alcohol to try and patch that. Higher alcohol is definately a body builder, but it is a cheap substitute compared to more conventional methods like carefully designed grain bills or serving living beer.

Rodenbach blends (or at least did). So did Liefmans when Goudenband was world class. So does New Belgium. Find another way to accomplish your objective if you must, but though I appreciate Jeffs comment understand that the people who get the results we all look for do not do it by bumping ABV.

Al B
01/05/06 02:01 PM  
Re: Lets Talk Oud Bruin Recipes
This is my new favorite brew style! I think Petrus Oud Bruin is a tad thin on mouthfeel - and pretty sure only Lactobacillus is involved, not sure if that one blended.

(I have isolated only Lactobacillus from the bottle).

I just brewed what I'm calling an "imperial oud bruin" - should be around 8%abv. Oak cubes + Lactobacillus bugs (3 strains) only in the aging vessel (I'm staying away from Pediococcus and Brett, avoiding too much thinness and uncontrollable wildness). If the results are off, I will blend with a fresh batch. Moderate sourness and fruity flavors are creeping up after 2-3 weeks.

After just quaffing some Vichtenaar, I'm thinking of brewing 2 more batches (around 5-6 %abv) for blending and adding Acetobacter to one (carefully).

During blending I Plan to use some Lysozyme to stop the Lacto. and plenty of CO2 to stop the Aceto.

Any thoughts for that !?!?!

SteveG
01/05/06 02:21 PM  
Re: Lets Talk Oud Bruin Recipes
Now those are three words that go nicely - Imperial Oud Bruin!

>>Any thoughts for that !?!?!<<

Usually my advice here is to hope you post! My bet is that you know exactly what to do and are on target. OK then, that's it. Next week I'm going to be more aggressive in planning the next sour beer swap and I won't take no for an answer from you!!

BTW, I agree with the simpler bacteria profile for a sour brown. My very first one was great until the brett kicked in.

Al B
01/05/06 02:48 PM  
Re: Lets Talk Oud Bruin Recipes
OK OK I'll keep ya posted....

Shockingly, Vichtenaar is reported by US inporter not to be blended - the mouthfeel is silky, sweet malty, lactic sour with vinegar tones.(how they do that without blending?!?!). .....must be the cask....a wonderful cask.

Duchesse de Bourgogne and Echt Kriekenbier are blended.

SteveG
01/05/06 03:27 PM  
Re: Lets Talk Oud Bruin Recipes
Vichtenaar is fairly long established here on the BBB as one of the very favorites of myself and good ole Joelle from Texas. The only beer I got more than one of at the last 24Uur I attended. Whenever I see Darius (the importer) at an event and Vichtenaar is not offered he has a special one set aside for me, wadda guy!! Never knew it was unblended though, that does surprise me. Maybe they sulfite it at some critical point.
MIKE W
01/06/06 04:02 AM  
Re: Lets Talk Oud Bruin Recipes
Here's a thought or maybe it's a question.....

Knowing that Yeast will be stripping all the medium malts (Crystal/Munich/etc) out of the finished product, but knowing some of the higher kilned dark malts will survive....

The Darker malts have less fermentable components than base or medium malts. So, if we could make a the medium malts present by creating less fermentable qualities of these grains, wouldn't they malt flavors survive the yeast stripping?

Just a thought!

It could be done by creating a separate mash from the base and dark malts...... A mash could be constructed with some base for the enzymes to work with, but use mostly Cystals/Munich/etc in the mash and use a high Sac. temp like 156-158'F, which would create a less fermentable dextrinous wort. This could be added back into the main wort before boiling....

Would it work??

I think, I've been doing this too long!!

SteveG
01/06/06 07:05 AM  
Re: Lets Talk Oud Bruin Recipes
Good question Mike, I think it would take a lab tech for a maltster to really answer. What I was able to keep out of the dark grains was the coffeeish character. I don't really associate that with sugars or any fermentable compounds. Keep in mind the larger strings that are created from higher temps are only unfermentable by yeast, but that rule may not apply to other forms of micro biology. I don't believe the heavy 1080 wort I made back in '95 would ever have thinned out had I just used some conventional yeast, but when the lambic bacteria got involved that went out the window. So although I'm not a lab tech I think that the bacteria would rip though your wort regardless of higher mash temps. In fact back in those days I was a big dextrinous wort guy, I bet my mash schedule was similar to your suggestion.
Al B
01/06/06 07:51 AM  
Re: Lets Talk Oud Bruin Recipes
Yep,

Most Saccharomyces yeast will not ferment complex sugars (crystal malts), but bacteria and Brettanomyces yeast love 'em. Dextrins, starches, complex sugars, proteins, you name it, bacteria + wild yeast will break it down into simple sugars creating acids, etc. etc. Limitations to how much "maltiness" remains depends on % alcohol, pH, Temperature, and contact time, I believe. Love this thread, I'll post my recipe in a sec.

Al B
01/06/06 08:58 AM  
Re: Lets Talk Oud Bruin Recipes
Imperial Oud Bruin - Brewed Dec. 17,'05 went something like this: OG ~ 1.074, sour mash (what the heck, I thought)

Pilsner

Vienna

Cara-amber 30L

Dk. crystal 135L

Kilncoffee (1.5 oz)

Pale chocolate (0.5oz)

~ 4 HBU Sterling

1/4 oz Strisselspalt 20'

1/4 oz Strisselspalt 10'

Primary(72-74F): WL - Abbey

WY - Roeselare (Saccharomyces yeast only - isolated on agar plate)

WY - Belgian golden

Secondary: Lactobacillus delbruekii, recultured Lactobacillus species from Wostyntje (DeRegenboog), Lactobacillus species from Petrus Oud Bruin, French Oak cubes (heavy toast + medium toast ~ 2.5 oz.)

Batch #2 for blending (to be determined) - to be brewed very soon: OG ~ 1.048, sour mash

Pilsner

Aromatic

Cara-malt 15L

Cara-munich 30L

Dk. Crystal 135L

Special B

~ 3 HBU Sterling

1/4 oz Strisselspalt 20'

Primary(72-74F): WL - Abbey

WY - Roeselare (Saccharomyces yeast only)

Secondary: same as imperial, but siphon ~ 1 liter to another vessel for "vinagarizing" with acetobacter.

Batch #3 for blending (to be determined) - OG ~ 1.048, no bacteria

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12/04/06 11:33 AM  
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yopper
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