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Author Replies
SteveG
11/09/05 07:39 AM  
Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
I plan to fire up the pot again early next year, so I'm outlining my brewing goals through to the spring. High on the list is a trippel - its been a while. I've mucked around with fun twists, this time I'm going tried and true. But it has been a couple years since I made one, and more yeast is available now. I'm pretty stuck on WhiteLabs now-a-days, it looks like there are several that could fit the bill:

Belgian Style Ale yeast Blend (WLP575)

Belgian Ale (WLP550) (seems less obvious a choice but possible)

Abbey Ale (WLP530)

Trappist Ale (WLP500)

Bastogne Belgian Ale Yeast (WLP510)

I love St. Bernardus, that being said what would be your choice and why?

SteveG
11/10/05 10:36 AM  
Re: Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
I think I'm going for Abbey Ale WLP530, it uses the exact same description as the Trappist ale yeast (which seems a little funny) except that one is used by one Trappist abbey and other by two. Both have "distinctive fruitiness and plum characteristics", though they arn't described as being all that distinctive from one another. The abbey is rated as a better flocculator though, and I do generally prefer my brews less cloudy.

The Bastogne Belgian Ale Yeast sounded nice except for that acidic finish.

Belgian Style Ale yeast Blend sounds neat if a bit broad brushed. I'd want to know what the other yeast in the blend was though.

N8
11/10/05 11:21 AM  
Re: Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
The Wl510 is supposed to be the Ardennes yeast which comes from the Achouffe brewery. I've used the Wyeast version of it and it's really nice in a trippel. Cultured out of a bottle of La Chouffe, it's even better.

The WL530 is the Westmalle strain. I've had pretty good luck it as well.

Haven't used the blend. I typically get Wyeast anyway. If I'm not culturing yeast out of bottle, that is.

The Delerium Tremens yeast out of the bottle is really nice in a trippel. Pretty volitile fermenter though. I've got a DT clone on tap now that has turned out really nice.

SteveG
11/10/05 11:53 AM  
Re: Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
Hummm, the WL530 is the Westmalle strain? I've always found Westmalle to be more alcoholic tasting then I'd like. I wonder why that is, perhaps the yeast produces some more intense alcohols then others. Thanks for the heads up, this is worth reconsidering.
N8
11/10/05 12:18 PM  
Re: Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
Maybe the increased ferment temps are producing a higher amount of fusels that are coming through that you're experiencing. Perhaps if you fermented it at a lower temp it might not be so alcoholic.

My vote is for the Ardennes. I really like that one.

Have you tried the Kasteel yeast? That is a very good yeast for big Belgians. Culture it up out of a bottle of Kasteel Blonde and give it a go. You can also get the Wyeast version called Dutch Castle yeast. Good stuff.

Chet
11/10/05 12:21 PM  
Re: Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
I liked the 530 in a strong dark I made; I haven't tried making a triple yet, but it should work. The WL description used to say it would go up to 15% abv, but that was taken out at some point...

IIRC, the blend is 500/530/550 - I don't recall where I read that, but fwiw...

Sean Paxton
11/10/05 04:58 PM  
Re: Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
Iíd recommend the Wyeast 3787. It is the Westmalle yeast. I like the slight clove finish to the almost apple complexity of the pilsner malt. I have had great results with this yeast. Like your comments on the Whitelabs Saison yeast, I have had problems with Whitelabs.

Another recipe I did for a tripel, I cultured up a Foret from Du Pont. Was a really nice batch. Cam in 4th at the AHA in í96 with it.

What is your recipe for your trippel? Itís one of my favorite styles.

SteveG
11/10/05 09:22 PM  
Re: Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
Hi Sean, I'm still looking at how to hop the thing, but that being said:

TRIPPEL

10 lb. Pilsner Malt

2 lb. Wheat Malt

2 lb. Light Crystal

1 oz. EKG 60 minutes

1 oz. Tettnanger 45 minutes

1 oz. Saaz 20 minutes

1 oz. Saaz 2 minutes

1 tsp.Irish Moss

24 oz. Light Candi Sugar for 15 minutes

Great comments on yeast BTW, much to consider. I expect this to be brewed during January, so avoiding high temperatures will be no prob.

N8
11/10/05 09:50 PM  
Re: Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
With a trippel you don't want much of a flavor and/or aroma hopping. You want the yeast to do the flavoring. Might I suggest something like Saaz and EKG for ~35 IBUs at beginning of the boil. Well, 35 IBUs if the OG is up around 1.075-1.080

Just my $0.02

SteveG
11/11/05 06:48 AM  
Re: Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
I've found the late Saaz doesn't have the floral impact that it would in something like a pils, I think it blends pretty well. I started playing with that after trying some of Kwak's self-described "exceptionally dry hopped" stuff (it was in 750s). I thought it was delightful, but I would never have guessed it to be dry hopped. I don't know how to describe the effect, but it was not what I wopuld have associated with late hopping.

Hey, maybe a triple exchange this coming summer (I like to think ahead!)?

N8
11/11/05 10:33 AM  
Re: Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
Good point with the Kwak.

I like the trippel exchange idea. I was thinking of suggesting that, but thought you all might have already done that.

Speaking of the Kwak, there is another Beigian that is dry hopped. I can't recall the name, but I remember it was pretty good. I'll let you know when it comes to me.

Sean Paxton
11/11/05 12:36 PM  
Re: Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
Nice recipe Steve,

Hopping is pretty close. Just finding that right balance. My only suggestion would be to use fewer malts. A trippel gets it complexity with simplicityÖ Let the pilsner malt stand up and shine. Then the yeast can showcase its perfume on the beverage and add another layer.

I actually add the candi sugar as I am draining into the boil pot. It pretty much dissolves before the brew comes to a boil. This does add a tiny bit of color, yet also caramelize the sugar giving a nice flavor complexity. Another friend uses inverted sugar instead of candi sugar and it does change the body and finish of the beer. Even only 2# of sugar, compared to the 10# of malt, the flavor and finishing body adds to the balance.

Iím in on a Trippel swap. Now Iíll have to brew some up. First I am doing an Imperial Stout next weekend, which will have some coco nibs, vanilla beans and about 1 quart of espresso added to the secondary. I might do a 10 gallon batch, to split off 5 gallons with a London Ale 1028, and the other 5 gallons with a culture of 1762 Belgian Abbey II (Rochefort yeast) and then maybe some brett and oak chips.

SteveG
11/11/05 01:10 PM  
Re: Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
Humm. I know what you mean about "simple complexity". With all the ooohing and ahhhing about complexity, the thing I think I want to get back to with this beer is plain old banana esters! I've been dorking around with the style (thought I have not made one since '03) since the early 90's. The very first triple I made had an really neat but simple flavor profile that I have been making more complicated since.

Bruce Lee once said when you start martial arts training a punch is just a punch. Then you spend the next 20 years exploring it, analysizing it, experimenting with it and when you are done its just a punch again. Except now it beautiful. I think that's how I feel about this beer.

OK, you're right. I'm going to loose a lb of the crystal and (N8) kill the late hopping. Triple 101.

Sean Paxton
11/11/05 02:02 PM  
Re: Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
I totally understand Steve,

I struggle a lot. I get wild ideas, but then some of the outcomes are not what I wanted the final product to be. I look at some many of my favorite Belgians and see how really simple the recipes are. Look at Westvleteren 12 for example. With my chef background, I want to add and pair and balance. Yet sometimes to keep it simple upfront helps the complexity. Like Thomas Keller, ask him his favorite recipe; heíll tell you a roasted chicken. As simple as it sounds a perfect roasted chicken is very hard to do right, and when it is done right, all I can say is wow! Almost ethereal in flavor. Like your punch analogy, beautiful.

Iíve been of the philosophy with Trippels to keep it simple. One malt, one sugar, one hop & one yeast. But what is hard is to keep it stable. I look at Anchor Liberty, a beautiful beer. Yet, outside the brewery, where all the ideal conditions go out door, the beer doesnít have enough structure to keep it stable. I now only drink Liberty at the Brewery. That is the flavor I like and admire. The last bottle was so different than on tap that I stopped trying top get it on bottle.

With a trippel, I like the delicate notes of clove, banana, apple, honey, nutmeg, almost cinnamon. Maybe the Belgian Trippel is what Apple pie is to America.

Have you used the Servomyces yet? Iíve been brewing all year with them, and am finding very nice results in attenuation and balancing out any residual sweetness. Plus fermentation is almost a pitch and go!

SteveG
11/11/05 03:56 PM  
Re: Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
<<Have you used the Servomyces yet?>>

? Que Servomyces?

Though never a chef, I love to cook. Tonight I'm making a favorite, a nice salmon filet. With all the stovetop tinkering I do, there is only one way I will cook and eat salmon. Steamed with nothing on it. To perfect to screw with!

N8
11/11/05 05:43 PM  
Re: Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
From the WL web site:

Servomyces Yeast Nutrient

Servomyces is a nutritional yeast supplement (GMO free) that was originally developed for German brewers by Weihenstephan and the Munich University. It conforms to the restrictions of Reinheitsgebot. Servomyces enables any yeast strain's ability to incorporate essential nutrients into its cellular structure. Tested in breweries around the world, it has been proven to:

Cut down fermentation time

Increase flocculation

Greatly reduce harsh sulfur notes

Improve the health and viability of yeast

Reduce levels of diacetyl at the end of primary fermentation

Produce faster, more complete attenuations

Increase yeast production for a better harvest

Improve the quality of the finished product

Recent developments have made Servomyces available to homebrewers and home winemakers. Each retail packet contains 6 capsules, which can each be used for a 5-gallon (20 to 25L) batch of beer, wine, mead or cider. The instructions are listed below:

Add 1 capsule 10 minutes prior to the end of the boil.

OR, If your fermentation does not require a boil, open the capsule and pour in the Servomyces, since the capsule casing requires boiling to melt.

Only one capsule is required per 5-gallon (20 to 25 L) batch.

Servomyces can be used in all fermentations, including beer, wine, cider and mead

matt dinges
11/12/05 04:12 PM  
Re: Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
Just started reading this and one thing that is somewhat irrelevant to the conversation but I still feel the need to point out!

Bastogne is in no way the Ardennes Chouffe strain. It is the Orval primary strain, very, very different from the Wyeast Ardennes strain.

For a nice hoppy golden or trippel, Bastogne would be good, it is a fairly clean yeast. Ardennes meanwhile, is quite phenolic. That is a new description for the Bastogne as well...maybe the yeast has mutated??? it wasn't acidic last year or the year before (I've used it a number of times) Odd.

I don't use candi, instead using beet sugar from the grocery store. Generally, if it doesn's say "cane" it is beet. I'm not sure there is any flavor difference, but supposedly candi sugar is made from beer sugar.

I like to use a touch of either munich or aromatic in addition to pils malt. No crystal. I also throw in some flaked barley from time to time. I don't know exactly why, but I just don't like to use wheat much unless it is a light beer.

I like your hopping schedule except for the Tetts...I'd rather use Styrians & Saaz...maybe a dash of Hallertauer.

That being said, I've never really brewed anything that would be a classic Triple, like St. Bernardus...which in my opinion is godly. I just tend to play too much and end up dry hopping it with Amarillo or Grains of Paradise or Rose Hips or tossing in some brett...or....

Cheers

matt

N8
11/12/05 06:19 PM  
Re: Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
Matt, you're right. I agree that the Bastogne is not the same as Ardennes. I had to go back and reread what was written. I was going by a wyeast to white labs chart I had. I rarely use WLP yeast so I wasn't paying attention to the correlation between the two.

There isn't a difference between cane and beet sugar. They have the same end results. I typically use cane/beet sugar as well. I've tried several different sugars and found no real difference in the end product.

SteveG
11/13/05 08:08 AM  
Re: Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
<<I like to use a touch of either munich or aromatic in addition to pils malt. No crystal. >>

How come? There would probably be a Lovibond advantage, I'm not sure crystal can get as light as Munich. In the past I've even seen Munich and "Light Munich" divisions. Is that why?

<<I don't know exactly why, but I just don't like to use wheat much unless it is a light beer. >>

I take it by light beer you mean light in alcohol? I would think flaked barley would be more hazy. I have to admit, I might be adhereing to an old thing I heard 15 years ago that I don't actually know to be true regarding the use of wheat. The first brewshop I entered had a private label liquid extract (back then I cared about that!). It used 10% for better head retention. Maybe I'm just listening to my inner beginner. Would anyone else loose the wheat?

matt dinges
11/13/05 11:22 AM  
Re: Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
Steve,

Regarding the crystal, I just don't use much of it at all, except in pale ales and some strong highly hopped American ales. But mostly I have been trying to trim down my grain bills and simplify them, at least lately. I've some people get a little huffy with me and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about when I say that there isn't "light munich". Although maybe some maltster lables their munich as "light" In my head there is munich & "dark munich" Munich would fall into a Lovi of something like 5-10,12 or so...dark munich would be more of the Aromatic range say 15-22 or so.

I think someplaces that make munich on the lightest lovi side may call it "light" but to me this is munich. The Belgian (dingemans and castle) munichs I've been using are around 5L.

As for crystal, the only crystal I use tends to be caravienna or caramunich anyway...I'd consider a bit of caravienna in the grain bill. But hey, some tripel just aren't that light in color, you have some good color in the beer...I'm no BJCP adherant.

and the wheat...I mean a really light tasting, light drinking beer...like a 5%ABV summer blonde or my slightly beefier Brabant. Outside of Lambics I generally don't like beers with a significant portion of wheat in them. I've heard all the talk of head retention w/ wheat, but I've never found any of my beers to be lacking in head w/o it. Flaked barley is supposed to aid in heading as well, maybe does give it a slight haze(no problem in my book), and maybe adds a bit of creaminess to the mouthfeel. But I'm using a percentage of less than 5% or so.

I've used the Wyeast nutrients for years in my beers, and recently started using some of the WL stuff. I've never done side by side comparisons or had bad results when NOT using them, but it makes me feel good to give those yeasties some vitamins! Especially in a big beer.

Another classic, long, rambling response from me!

Here is a recipe I am about to bottle that I'm calling Temptress...we'll see how well it fits into the Triple class in a month!

Cheers

matt

temptress

A ProMash Brewing Session - Recipe Details Report

Recipe Specifics

----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 7.00 Wort Size (Gal): 7.00

Total Grain (Lbs): 19.00

Anticipated OG: 1.084 Plato: 20.28

Anticipated SRM: 4.3

Anticipated IBU: 41.4

Brewhouse Efficiency: 78 %

Wort Boil Time: 120 Minutes

Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

73.7 14.00 lbs. Castle Pils Belgium 1.038 2

10.5 2.00 lbs. Beet Sugar Generic 1.046 0

10.5 2.00 lbs. Castle Munich Belgium 1.037 5

5.3 1.00 lbs. Flaked Barley America 1.032 2

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.

Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.00 oz. Styrian Goldings Whole 4.10 9.9 First WH

1.50 oz. Hallertauer N.Z. Whole 7.00 31.5 90 min.

2.00 oz. Amarillo Whole 9.00 0.0 0 min.

Extras

Amount Name Type Time

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

0.10 Oz Grains of Paradise Spice 5 Min.(boil)

0.20 Oz Corriander Seed Spice 5 Min.(boil)

Yeast

-----

WYeast 3864 Canadian/Belgian

Mash Schedule

-------------

Mash Name:

Total Grain Lbs: 17.00

Total Water Qts: 20.00 - Before Additional Infusions

Total Water Gal: 5.00 - Before Additional Infusions

Tun Thermal Mass: 0.00

Grain Temp: 68.00 F

Step Rest Start Stop Heat Infuse Infuse Infuse

Step Name Time Time Temp Temp Type Temp Amount Ratio

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

infuse 5 15 127 127 Infuse 137 20.00 1.18

sacc 5 30 147 147 Infuse 200 8.83 1.70

Total Water Qts: 28.83 - After Additional Infusions

Total Water Gal: 7.21 - After Additional Infusions

Total Mash Volume Gal: 8.57 - After Additional Infusions

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.

All infusion amounts are in Quarts.

All infusion ratios are Quarts/Lbs.

Sean Paxton
11/13/05 11:25 AM  
Re: Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
I understand your reasoning for using wheat malt in your grist for head retention. The addition of 2# of wheat malt probably would turn your trippel more into a strong golden. The flavor profile of the finished brew would lose some of the simple elegance of what a trippel is.

A member in our club brewed a trippel and used Pils, Munich, Aromatic and when the brew, all said and done, it was more of a strong golden than a trippel.

Yet, this is only if you want to make a classic example of a trippel. I have tried many different brews that have taken the idea of a trippel and expanded on it. Look at Hair of the Dog Rose. They now use hibiscus flowers and beet juice to make the beer live up to the name on the label. The grain profile is that of a trippel, but is it still in the category? It tastes great, with a great finish. Alan Sprits just made another trippel with Black Currents added to the secondary; a Rose CassisÖ Trippel?

This is were I struggle with style guidelines vs what I want to brew and drinkÖ I get an idea for a beer, or seeing an ingredient I havenít brewed with before or a taste I am wanting to put into the drink before me. I feel that the classic example of a style is very important as it is were the style started and what we have used as a calibration. I look at what Vinnie is doing at Russian River: an Oud Bruin put into a pinot noir barrel with cherries. Wonderful beer, especially when you consider not many others are pushing this style in any direction. My point is that being a homebrewer gives use an advantage. We can do anything we want and try it. I donít think an experimental brew is wrong, just different. Isnít brewing to Belgian Style comment almost an oxymoron? That is how I see what we do as homebrewers so special. We help take a style in a different direction, modify it, change it to suit our own tastes. Think about if a 1800ís brewer were to try a Double IPA or a Bud? We can almost make this a new topic in the forum: What ideas Homebrewers have on Belgian Beers.

Just my 2 cents.

matt dinges
11/13/05 11:27 AM  
Re: Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
N8,

I feel the same way about the sugars, I just don't see any reason to spend $4/lb on clear candi. I've had some beers that tasted like candy, but it wasn't because they used candi sugar!

Cheers

matt

matt dinges
11/13/05 01:33 PM  
Re: Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
Interesting Sean,

When I think of a Golden, I think of Duvel, not something with a maltier body like you would get using Munich & Aromatic. I tend to think of Tripels as having more body and malt character than a golden.

When you say golden, are you refering to a Duvel-like beer? If not, what commercial beer would you be refering to?

Cheers

matt

SteveG
11/13/05 02:18 PM  
Re: Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
<<I've some people get a little huffy with me and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about when I say that there isn't "light munich".>>

I've bough grain labeled by the maltster as light Munich. Whether there is Munich and dark Munich or light Munich and Munich is a matter of reference point, I guess it just means the malt pushed to the lighter side of what is accepted for Munich.

I'm not really going for what the BJCP would tell me is the correct triple, but I do want to do something very basic. Pale and banana-like. For old times sake! I'll probably end up munching a few grains from the list of prospects, whether I end up using crystal or carapils is up in the air. I'm not convinced they are all that different.

Jim Denier
11/15/05 05:40 PM  
Re: Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
Hi Steve.

I'm a relative newbie to this site (been checking it out since I'm planning a Xmas trip to BE). Anyhow, I've got a dubbel 7 days in the fermenter, and I used the WLP575 blend. I'll let you know how the yeast plays with this style. So far, the 7-day ferment has the SG down to 1.022 from an OG of 1.067. Been holding the temp at 68 deg+-; starting to get a slight whiff of banana.

Cheers,

Jim

SteveG
11/26/05 01:44 PM  
Re: Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
Just got back from a few days in Philly which included a stop by home sweet homebrew. I stocked up on everything I will need through March, including the yeast that will make my wort a triple - I hope! Turns out those guys don't stock White Labs, they prefer the upgraded WYeast poutches. So I explained what I was looking for and took the advice I was offered. They agreed with you N8, looks like Ardennes will be my next brewing partner.
Al B
12/12/05 01:13 PM  
Re: Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
Steve,

Just picked up a few bottles of Witkap Trippel (unfiltered, unpasteurized) - I can always culture it as a back up if yer still not sure on da yeast.....

Al B. microbiologist

SteveG
12/12/05 04:04 PM  
Re: Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
I'd want to take a rain check on that Al, I did end up buying a poutch. Otherwise I'd always be interested in brewing with something you prepared. Another time I hope!
SteveG
01/27/06 09:34 AM  
Re: Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
Finally time to put this one to use, the trippel is being made Sunday. One twist, inspired by the candy syrup thing I'm not just going to use rock sugar. I have a pound of that, but I'll suppliment it with a 325ml jar of Lyles golden syrup. Darn tasty stuff.
N8
01/27/06 11:40 AM  
Re: Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
I would be interested in the outcome of that Steve. I recently found some of the Lyle's in a new grocery store in town. I bought several cans of it because I've seen recipes using it. It figured it would be more for English ales, but that might work fairly well for Begians as well.

Now I'm looking for the Treacle for an Old Peculiar knock off. A friend of mine got a pretty close reciope for OP from one of the brewers at Theakston.

SteveG
01/27/06 12:36 PM  
Re: Yeast suggestions for a Trippel
Bill Coleman turned me onto that, he assited Tom at Heavyweight brewing with a batch of old Salty and some Lyles went in there. Bill really went on about the flavor of the stuff. I bought a can and found he was right on, really fantastic tasting.

The funny part is sometimes you mention this to people who roll their eyes and say "its just invert sugar". There is a simple way to make invert sugar (never done it but so I've been told), but its like they don't consider how delicious this particular syrup is. I never got that.

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