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Brettanomyces Brewing
E-Symposium Transcript!

Trouble making Trappists?
Discover Liquid Candy Syrup!
See what color impact to expect from liquid candy.

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Author Replies
01/09/06 09:34 AM  
GREAT swap opportunity!
If you followed the thread started by Tremens then you know a guy using the handle Dark Candi (real name is Brian) chimed in to announce that the sugar source in question - which is being presented as the ingredient that makes a real Belgian dubbel what it is - will soon be on the shelf here in the US. That is some pretty cool news, but there was one thing about this that did not get posted in the thread. Brian has made a great offer, he is awaiting a shipment of this new brewing sugar but currently has a limited amount. He has generously offered to provide enough for 5 people to brew a batch.

Here are the conditions: You need to send him compensation for shipping, you need to use it before the month is out and you need to participate in a swap to be held around the beginning of May. If you are good with all that, then you'll be among the first to get a crack at this great sounding adjunct.

Interested? Post here. First come first serve.

Dark Candi
01/09/06 01:18 PM  
Re: GREAT swap opportunity!

I will send the standard package size- 500ml. This is equal to 2 pounds of the rocks.

1/4 cup syrup = 1.010 per gallon

So you can use as much or as little as you like.

I think everyone should shoot for the the beer they want. Keep in mind that the equivalent amount to syrup to rocks will produce the correct gravity. However, the flavor and color will be much different.

My goal is for everyone involved to try something new(to us) and use it how they see fit.


01/10/06 01:28 PM  
Re: GREAT swap opportunity!
To keep this thread easier to keep up with I killed most of the notes in it (I wanted this one higher up and more noticable). In general I go to great lengths to avoid deleting posts, but I thought it would be OK here - I hope I'm right. All the important info was collected, it is my hope that thinning out this thread has not offended anyone.

As this swap progresses I'll need info from everyone to figure out timing for the tasting session. For now, here is the crew:

SteveG, Chet, N8, Sean Paxton, Rich Link, Erik K and Tremens. I need the following:

Sean Paxton - mailing address

Erik K - email address, mailing address, full name

Tremens - mailing address

please send this info to steve@cmg.net

We'll start with the planning phase to figure out when all this will happen sometime in March. Till then, git that thar beer made!! Steve

01/10/06 03:12 PM  
Re: GREAT swap opportunity!
This looks like a great swap idea.

Are we still going to do the sour beer swap, or is that going to be put on hold for a bit?

01/10/06 03:50 PM  
Re: GREAT swap opportunity!
Well, though that one has not really moved forward, it is my intention to still try and make it happen. Early May seemed like good timing for aging purposes on this one, but I was also trying to keep my options open regarding a possible date for the sour thing in March. This new development has distracted me from that a bit, but you'll be hearing more soon.
Dark Candi
01/10/06 08:16 PM  
Re: GREAT swap opportunity!

All packages are away!

Everyone should receive a box no later than monday.

Can't wait to hear what your first impression will be.


Eric K
01/11/06 12:16 AM  
Re: GREAT swap opportunity!
Is this syrup really 1000 SRM? If this is the case, it takes about 6 oz to make a dark black 10 gallon batch. This syrup may serve as more of a coloring agent than a gravity/flavor adjunct.
01/11/06 08:21 AM  
Re: GREAT swap opportunity!
Wow, thanks for catching that Erik, I wizzed right past it. DC, do you recommend loosing the dark grains when using this for a dubbel? Steve
01/11/06 09:29 AM  
Re: GREAT swap opportunity!
According to Promash, treacle is 100 srm for comparison...
Dark Candi
01/11/06 09:47 AM  
Re: GREAT swap opportunity!

Regarding color,

Matt at the Siebel Lab says that they dilute the syrup to a standard. Then they read that sample with a spectrophotometer. That delivers a color number. This is how they figure color for grain.

This first number is lower than the final number.

The Lab then takes this number and multiplies it to give a more accurate number for color estimating.

If they did not dilute the syrup, the spectrophotometer could not get a reading. The syrup is too thick and black.

Now, anyone who has used the dark candi rocks before, will tell you that yes, they are rated at 275L but after adding 2lbs of the stuff, the wort is not as dark as the 275L would have you believe.

If you mashed 2lbs of 275L grain what would you get?

It seems that with colored sugars, you cannot use the color in quite the same manner.

What do you think?

As for my test batches, I find that you can use light grains, and as you add more syrup the beer will go from brown to dark brown and then red, and finally black with red edges, depending on how much you use.

You will want to find your own % and personal taste.


01/11/06 10:17 AM  
Re: GREAT swap opportunity!
>>What do you think?<<

I think the right thing to do would be to take the 8 oz. of dark wheat crystal and 2 oz of chocolate that I was planning to use out of the recipe. Realistically if the objective is to evaluate the impact of the syrup, removing the stronger flavored dark grain makes sense anyway. I have a little extra base grain (I always buy a little more than I need just for such occasions), I think I'll add a half pound to my recipe to displace the dark grains.

Does anyone think that is what the trappists do - that is to say darken entirely with sugar? I mean it is pretty common to see dubbel recipes that call for dark grains, but then we have not had access to a 1000 SRM form of candi sugar. Maybe the accepted homebrewer mentality here has been driven by our lack of authentic brewing products. Man, that would be quite a discovery.

01/11/06 10:59 AM  
Re: GREAT swap opportunity!
Now I'm torn.

My original thought was doing one mash, then splitting the wort 3 ways using 3 different sugars in each.

Now, I'm curious about doing two separate mashs - one all Pils + dark candi syrup; the second Pils/spc. b/caramunich etc. + dark candi syrup.

FWIW, in "Brew Like a Monk" (by Stan Hieronymus)a variety of different Trappist & Abbey style beers are profiled.

Included are ingredient profiles (not recipes, although there are a few of those as well) - at least one listed just pilsner malt and dark candi sugar/syrup, iirc.

Others listed caramel malts (could be any of the spc b/caravienne/caramunich/etc.) and black malk (I'm assuming the debittered kind).

So not surprisingly, there are a variety of different approaches...

Dark Candi
01/11/06 11:06 AM  
Re: GREAT swap opportunity!
If you like these beers, then you need to get the new book from Stan Hieronymus, Brew Like A Monk.

Take a look


Stan talks about these things.

01/11/06 11:12 AM  
Re: GREAT swap opportunity!
Chet, if it were me - and I know its not! - but if it were...

I would stick with your first plan if the objective is laterally evaluating these different sugars - which sounds like the case. If you use different grain bills then you will not be seeing the different effects of the sugars as some of those effects will be attribuatable to grains. In that case it really stops being a comparison of sugars and starts being an effort to make 3 similar but different beers at once. So I guess the real question is what is it you are trying to accomplish?

Eric K
01/11/06 11:29 AM  
Re: GREAT swap opportunity!
It's my understanding (from the literature)that dark sugar is used as the primary ingredient to darken the beer....this especially applies to dubbels. Although a slight nuttiness may be desirable in a dubbel, an astringent roasted, grainy flavor is not. So, DC's syrup may be the missing critical ingredient we've been searching for.

I also found the same color dilution affect with 275L dark candy sugar. My last dubbel included 2 lbs in the recipe for an estimated SRM of 26, but what I really got was more like an SRM of 15. Therefore, because of this suger SRM dilution affect during the boil/fermentation, we can probably add more syrup than we think. However, I'm not sure if there would be a similar reduction in SRM, which would roughly be 57% of the estimated SRM (15/26=0.57).

Eric K
01/11/06 01:00 PM  
Re: GREAT swap opportunity!
My approach will be to brew a dubbel with the same grain bill, but replace the dark candy suger with syrup (30-50% less than the dark candy sugar amount). I'll either duplicate my last batch, or brew two 5 gal batches on the same day to account for any differences in ageing.
Sean Paxton
01/13/06 01:20 AM  
Re: GREAT swap opportunity!
Very intrigued by this product! Just received the Candi Syrup this evening. All I can say is wow. Like nothing Ive tasted before. Hints of molasses, toffee, vanilla, chocolate, caramel, with almost a date undertone. And to say this is dark, its 10W-30! I can now see how this product, with pilsner and pale malt can make a darker brew and give some of the flavors that have mystified us homebrewers.

I need to re-think my Dubbel recipe now

01/13/06 03:55 PM  
Re: GREAT swap opportunity!
OK, well, now I'm counting the days till mine shows up! Anyone who uses the stuff this weekend please share your experience. I changed my recipe to loose the dark grains, I'd love to get some input on the darkening aspect.
Eric K
01/13/06 04:38 PM  
Re: GREAT swap opportunity!
I just received the candi syrup last night as well. Man! this stuff is thick and heavy. The color is like super dark mahogany, almost black.

I have my WLP500 yeast starters going and I plan to brew this Saturday or Sunday. I'm lovin life! Cudos to our Dark Candi man!

01/14/06 12:50 AM  
Re: GREAT swap opportunity!
Got my syrup today as well. Beautiful stuff.

If I didn't already have a brew session scheduled for Sunday I would get into my syrup brew.

I have high hopes for this stuff.

Thanks a bunch Brian!

01/14/06 10:49 AM  
Re: GREAT swap opportunity!
I'm jealous - mine hasn't arrived yet.

I did get some WL530 to make a big starter (enough for 3 batches)...

Eric K
01/17/06 12:50 PM  
Re: GREAT swap opportunity!
I brewed the experimental dubbel this weekend. I used the first runnings from a 10 gallon mash recipe (see below) for the dark candy sugar batch and the second running for the dark syrup batch. Both batches were boiled for 90 minutes with the sugars being added at 45 min into the boil. The first batch contained 14 oz dark belgian candy surgar and 1/2 pound of dark brown sugar. In the second batch I used 350 ml of the dark syrup. The syrup changed the color of the wort from ~10 SRM to ~23-27 SRM (i.e., from a reddish-amber to a dark brown Mahogany), about 5-8 SRM's darker than the candy sugar batch.

I'm sure the wort would have been pitch black if I added the entire 500 ml into the boil. Having complete control over the final color of the wort was an eye-opener.

Dubbel Recipe

Grain Bill (Estimated OG=1.058, SRM=10 without sugars)

14 lbs Pilsner (Gambrinus)

6 lbs Light Munich (Gambrinus)

1 lbs Biscuit (Castel)

1 lbs CaraVienna (Castel)

1 lbs CaraFoam (Weyermann)

Hop Bill (Estimated IBU=12)

0.5 oz Styrian Goldings @80min (Plug)

1.5 oz Mt Hood @20min (whole)


01/17/06 01:27 PM  
Re: GREAT swap opportunity!
Erik, your estimated OG, is that your first runnings OG or second runnings OG?
Eric K
01/17/06 04:14 PM  
Re: GREAT swap opportunity!
Steve, that was my calculated OG from ProMash software. I didn't take any hydrometer readings during my brew session (I was distracted by some fellow brew buddies that day). However, I did take 1 qt of gyle from each batch, so I'll take a hydrometer reading before I prime the kegs. I'll post the readings in a couple of weeks.

The second runnings are typically weaker than the first, so I tried to adjust for this in the begining by first adding 1/2 of my sparge water into the mashtun (after a 90 min sacc. rest) then recirculating for 15-20 minutes before sending the running to my boil kettle. Once the boil kettle had about 4 gallons of wort, I added the final sparge water into the mashtun then recirculated for another 15-20 minutes, then sent 2.5 gallons of these runnings to the boil kettle. I then added 3/4 gallons of water to the boil kettle to dilute these first runnings a bit. Second, I had a reduced amount of runnings in my boil kettle for the second batch and I did not dilute. Overall approximately 4.5 gallons went into the fermentor in the second batch, compared to about 5.2 gallons in the first.

Rich Link
01/21/06 10:13 AM  
Re: GREAT swap opportunity!
I'm planning on brewing tomorrow (Sunday). I asked Tomme Arthur if he'd like to be involved, and he has agreed. He is supplying the pilsner malt and yeast. I'm supplying the Munich malt and crystal 77, and doing the brewing. The receipe is Tomme's that he developed for a new beer.

The malts will provide a wort of 1.066 gravity. The syrup and other sugars, if I sue them, will take the gravity (hopefully) to about 1.082. IBU's will be about 18 (I may bump this to about 22), using Styrian Goldings and Saaz, and possibly Hallertauer.

My only concern is color. I fgured if I used the entire 500ml of syrup, the beer would be black as could be. Eric, are you happy with the color?

By my calculations, using the enitire 500ml of syrup would raise the OG of 5 gallons about 1.008. What have you all found/calculated?

Concerned that the enitre 500ml will destroy the color of the beer, I think I'll use about 250ml and then use corn sugar to boost the gravity the rest of the way. So, that means the wort with matls and syrup will be 1.070. Then I add 1.5 pounds of corn sugar to make 1.082. I think that's right

I'll let you all know how it goes.

Oh yeah, adding to the confusion is a new brew system that I am finishing today. I'm hoping to get much better extraction rates, and clearer wort than I got from the system I built 15 years ago.


01/21/06 08:40 PM  
Re: GREAT swap opportunity!
Hey Rich,

Is the new system like your pop's? Or is the old one?

Chuck's a good friend from the club I'm in, Cascade Brewers Society. A few brew buddies, Chuck and myself brewed up a porter on his system several months ago. Nice little set up.


Rich Link
01/21/06 10:47 PM  
Re: GREAT swap opportunity!
No, actually mine is not on a tree. I just added a pump, therminator and built a cooler type mashtun. I built a new stainless kettle as well. About half of the system is new.
01/21/06 11:04 PM  
Re: GREAT swap opportunity!
Sounds nice, Rich.

Those Therminators are really cool. A brew buddy recently got one of those for his system.

Have a good brew day. I'll be brewing as well with the syrupy goodness.

01/22/06 09:12 AM  
Re: GREAT swap opportunity!
Same here, today is brew day. In the name of science I'm going to use the whole container to see just how dark it will make the brew.
Rich Link
01/22/06 10:57 AM  
Re: GREAT swap opportunity!
Wow! The whole continer?! I did some more calculatiojns on the syrup. The 500ml weighs 25 ounces. Based upon the specs that 1/4 cup = 1.010 per gallon, 1 pound = 1.054 per gallon. Check my math if you want. As for color, it seems like a crap shoot. Based upon Eric K's experience using 350 ml and increasing his SRM from ~10 to ~25, try this math out:

500ml = 25 oz

350 ml = 17.5 oz

17.5 oz @ 1.054 per gallon in 5 gallons is 1.0118 increase

And, lastly, for color, it would appear that Eric K's use of 350 ml to obtain approximately 15 SRM increase in 5 gallons, would put the actual practical SRM of this sryup at (drum roll please) 200 (two hundred).

Okay, here's the recipe that Tomme wants to try out:

5 gal

10 # Pilsner Malt

1.25# Munich

.75 # Crystal 77 (could only get Crystal 80)

To kettle I will add:

250ml (12.5 oz) of the dark syrup

1 pound corn sugar.

The malts will make 5 gallons of 1.066 wort. The syrup should raise it to about 1.073, and the corn sugar should take it to its' final destination of 1.082.

Hops are planned to be Stryian Goldings and Saaz for IBU of about 22. I'll figure those later this morning.

Lastly, Tomme gave me some of the Duvel yeast that he is using at Pizza Port. Ferment will start at 68 and go up naturally from there.

Tomme's interested in how this syrup will work. He wants to sue it, but has no test brewery for something like this. This small scale test batch should give us all a lot of information as to how much color, gravity and taste it will impart to the beer. I'm thinking a little will go a long way.

Okay, time to start measuring, milling and working out the inevitable minor glitches in the new brew system.


01/22/06 05:25 PM  
Re: GREAT swap opportunity!
Ok, just finished my brew session.

Here are the specs.

7.25# Dingemans Pils

7.25# Dingemans Pale

500mL syrup (w/15min left in boil)

Northern Brewer @ 60min

Hallertauer Hersbruck @ 45min

Fuggle @ 30 min

Wyeast 1728 Belgian abbey II

Mashed at 64C for 90min

boil 90 min

OG= 1.080

IBUs= 34

The color was not all that dark. It's about the color of a dubbel from looking at the carbouy.

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