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Al B
06/08/06 07:56 AM  
100% Brett brew
Here's the recipe I went with fer "you bretta, you Brett" Farmhouse ale: (3 gal) water treatment: 3g Ca Chloride OG ~ 1.062, Primary 65-68F 12 days

50% Pilsner

14% Munich

14% Wheat malt

10.5% Oat malt

7% Aromatic

2% Acid malt

2.5% Demerra sugar

2.3 HBU Strisslespalt 90'

1/4 oz Sterling 5' and 1'

servomyces nutrient

400ml slurry of B. clausenii

Presently in Secondary, pH ~4 Fg (so far) 1.013

SteveG
06/08/06 10:20 AM  
Re: 100% Brett brew
"You bretta, you Brett", is that a Who song reference? Any feel for gravity tolerances as they pertain to sourness? 1062 seems fairly high, do you think there is a low point where fermentation activity will not produce any sourness?
Al B
06/08/06 10:54 AM  
Re: 100% Brett brew
Yep, thats the Who.

I suspect the higher the gravity, the greater the possibility of more acidity.

Possibilities to experiment:

1.Perhaps pitching Brett(that is healthy and aerated in the starter) into a nonaerated wort will help in lessening the amount of acid produced during growth phase. But some acid will be made during fermentation as a normal part of respiration (although this is less than say, Lacto-bugs, I think).

2. Addition of Calcium Carbonate in brewing water. This would neutralize the acids. Although this woukld affect pH of yer mash, so maybe a late addition - in the fermentor?

3. Add the Brett in the secondary after Sacch. primary.

I know where your heading with this - I think a small scale experiment could be the answer utilizing different strains, temperatures, pitching rates, time - then measure pH to compare. (OK, maybe thats alot) but this could be accomplished using 1 liter of worts of each trial. ????

SteveG
06/08/06 01:52 PM  
Re: 100% Brett brew
Still considering options. Spiking the beer in the secondary was the direction I was thinking after last night but then that would mean deviating for the "brett as the primary fermentor" concept. People have been spiking with brett for a while, seems like there is less special about that.

Another possibility is monitoring the dropping gravity and stopping fermentation artificially. Like by heating it or sulfiting.

RyanA
06/08/06 02:47 PM  
Re: 100% Brett brew
Steve, whats the problem? A pH of 4 isn't sour, it's more of a pleasant tartness.
RyanA
06/08/06 02:51 PM  
Re: 100% Brett brew
I just bottled my Pale Ale that spiked with Brett Brux. I left a couple pints on top of the sediment along with most of the pellicle. I'm thinking of brewing something for it. I also need to brew a base beer for some wild raspberries that grow around here. Two birds, one stone? Any suggestions?
Al B
06/08/06 02:54 PM  
Re: 100% Brett brew
Ryan - I think Steve is looking into a 100% Brett Barleywine - which brewed MAY become very sour due to the amount of fermentables.

(i.e. When propagating B. clausenii in starter worts, it became more acidic - down to pH3).

The farmhouse brew I got going is a plaeasant tartness though, yeah....

RyanA
06/08/06 03:11 PM  
Re: 100% Brett brew
Bretta Barleywine? The brewers on this board never cease to amaze me.

I don't think you want to put brett into a nonaerated wort. I believe that brett starts producing acetic acid when it goes anaerobic. Also, I would be worried that it would ferment so slow that you'd be risking an infection.

Al B
06/08/06 03:11 PM  
Re: 100% Brett brew
Brett Brux. hmmmmmm. Had a bad experience once with Lambic blend and adding cherries to soon. Hard to describe the freightening intensity of a dead horse and smoke. Still trying to figure out what happened there. Maybe to much sugars and acidity with too much of Brux (since the esters are formed from acids, and maybe the wrong kind of acids)?

Al B
06/08/06 03:13 PM  
Re: 100% Brett brew
Yeah, don't know about that idea either - Wild Brews book says (I think) that more acetic is produced with O2 and lactic during fermenation. <<>>
RyanA
06/08/06 03:15 PM  
Re: 100% Brett brew
I will be freezing the raspberries when I pick them in a month or so and won't be adding them for another month after that.

RyanA
06/08/06 03:23 PM  
Re: 100% Brett brew
You're right, I had that backwards. Sparrow also says that Brett stops working at a pH of 3.4
SteveG
06/08/06 03:41 PM  
Re: 100% Brett brew
Wow, this thread really took off! Ryan, Al is right, the motivation here for this effort and for the event last night is to explore a region of brewing that is largely uncharted. With all the brewing history humanity behind it has I find it just amazing that that is possible. So I have decided to boldy go where no man has gone before, a barley wine that uses a brettanomyces strain as it sole fermentation agent. I am hoping to encounter the medley of unusual flavors that brett can offer, but if access to all that sugar means stoking up the sour engine then I need to tread carfully. Some sourness is OK, the potential here is really though the roof. Through the roof is not where I am looking to go.
Mykel Obvious
06/10/06 08:16 PM  
Re: 100% Brett brew
I'm looking at the following recipe as soon as I get my mash tun set up:

74% Pale Malt

11% Dark Moist Candi Sugar

7.5% Wheat DME

3.5% Aromatic

3.5% Munich

1.75 oz Hallertauer @ 60'

2.00 oz Styrian Golding @ 1'

OG ~1.069

SRM ~10.5

IBUs ~35

Servomyces

1 L starter of Brettanomyces claussenii

Ferment @ 70-75F

any thoughts???

Al, how much CaCO3 should I add to help counter the acid production???

later,

mikey

Al B
06/11/06 10:20 PM  
Re: 100% Brett brew
A good question (if yer looking to stay away from excessive tartness). I'd be careful in adding it to the mash water since there aren't any dark malts to offset and throw your conversion off. I think your best bet is to add it in the secondary - alittle at a time and taste (I don't think the CaCO3 will "infect" your brew, but you can heat it the oven perhaps, or boil a 10% solution). Hopefully that would do the trick. If I do this, I'll let ya know!

Mykel Obvious
06/12/06 08:37 AM  
Re: 100% Brett brew
I'm not sure I am going to do this myself... it was just something I was thinking about and thought I'd ask about it... I LIKE tartness ;-) But I know that some of the people who I'd like to try this do NOT like it... their loss I guess LOL... I think I'll just let the first one go and see where it takes me!!!

I am going to brew my "Dubbel Dubble Toil n' Trub'l" before I do my all Brett Brew anyway... and I have to finish my new keg kettle before I try this one... so I've got at least 2 weeks to hash out what I want to try... Basically what I am shooting for is something in the Strong Belgian Pale Ale range with B. claussenii... this very well may be my first all grain brew as well ;-)

I want to thank you all again for all the help you've given me with the Belgian style of brewing and to let you all know just how glad I am that you are here!!! Can't wait to take part in a swap!!!!

later,

mikey

SteveG
06/12/06 09:28 AM  
Re: 100% Brett brew
Mikey, I'm pretty sure I'm going to go the CaCO3, though I like tartness as well. But I think as with all things in beer it needs to be handled with a measure of balance. For me the starting gravity will be really high, I fear that I'll end up with something over the top if I just let nature take its course. I think I'll end up taking every effort I can to obstruct the sourness with the expectation that those efforts will be far from absolute and I'll still have a plenty sour beer!

I think I'll need to monitor mine and be prepared to halt brett activity at some point. Like maybe pasturizing or something. Then introduce a secondary fermentation agent to finish the job. In that case I'd blow the 100% brett thing, but I could still say brett was the primary agent.

I'm really looking forward to this too. When its time for us to pull off a swap I was thinking of trying to get a BYO magazine rep or something to be present. Swaps in general are really great, but I think this one would be something of a history maker.

Mykel Obvious
06/13/06 09:30 AM  
Re: 100% Brett brew
Steve,

That would be GREAT!!! I hope you can pull that off, because I'm with you, it would be a historic tasting session for sure...

With that in mind, I cannot in all good conscience add anything but Brettanomyces claussenii to my beer :D I just have to see how sour B. claussenii alone will make a 1.069 beer so then we'll know if it might be safe to try on a 1.100+ beer without any CaCO3 or other means of controlling the fermentation... it's for posterity after all

;-)

later,

mikey

SteveG
08/12/06 07:21 AM  
Re: 100% Brett brew
Looks like arrangements have been made, Saturday I pick up my big scarry bottle 'o brett and Sunday I find out what happens when you pitch it into a barley wine wort. Al is helping me think of way to stop it from becoming just a rediculously super sour beer.
dsanborn
08/12/06 02:22 PM  
Re: 100% Brett brew
Why stop it from becoming a "rediculously super sour beer?" Let it run its course and go from there...you may end up with a 'rediculously sour, super-beer'

and if the sourness gets too wound up for you - very carefully add some splenda/nutrisweet or other non-fermentable sweetner.

BTW, I'd love to get a taste when it's all done!

cheers, scamborn - lover of sour beers and bone-dry white wine.

Al B
08/14/06 10:49 AM  
Re: 100% Brett brew
Well, it seems that A HUGE amount of CaCO3 would be needed to offset high acidity. I just brewed a second batch with some (can't recall ppm off hand), but there was no effect in tasting.

Update on first batch:

its been 3months, and pH is about 3, fermentation seems to be done, and a very pleasant fruity pineapple aroma + flavor. There seems to be a very slight Brett note in the background. I plan to bottle some using corn sugar at the normal rate.

Green_Monkey23
10/06/06 10:53 AM  
Small problem...
Sorry for your time.... Why i can't see images on this resource?

My Browser is: Opera.

Thank you.

SteveG
11/14/06 12:05 PM  
Re: 100% Brett brew
Touching base. I sampled my brett barley wine this morning, thought I'd report. It is still mostly a barley wine but the fruit profile is becoming pretty impossible to ignor. Not to sound like an echo, but the best way to describe the new flavor component is, shockingly, pineapple. It does not appear to be transforming into a sour beer per say, just developing a fruit presence. My next planned gravity reading is March, nop gravity taken today.
PMR
11/27/06 08:10 PM  
Re: 100% Brett brew
I brewed a similar beer with 65% US 2-row, 23% German Munich I, 8% CaraPils, 4% Honey Malt with 28 IBU's from a 90 minute addition of Sterling, fermented entirely with B. Claussenii. I'm getting some very different notes-- pineapple, menthol, lyptus, and the usual barnyard funk. It's pretty interesting, but not quite the beer I was expecting (I wanted it to be along the lines of Mo Betta Bretta).
Old Sock
11/27/06 09:55 PM  
Re: 100% Brett brew
"I wanted it to be along the lines of Mo Betta Bretta"

I'm getting ready to do a Mo' Betta Bretta clone in about a month, so I've been doing some research on the beer. There are a couple clone recipes out there, but they all leave out a step that I heard the co-brewer, Peter Bouckaert, talk about in an interview. Apparently they took some of the first runnings, diluted them down to 10P and “fermented” it with 2L of Lacto slurry while the rest of the lauter/boil went on. They then added the soured wort back to the end of the boil. He did not mention how much wort, just called it a bucket (so not a huge volume on the brewpub scale). He said that it didn't add much sourness to the finished beer, but that lactic acid allows the Brett to make esters that it otherwise cannot.

Not sure if I will do it their way, add some sour malt, or just add a bit of lactic acid near flame out. Anyone have experience with adding/creating lactic acid pre-boil to an all brett beer?

Speaking of Brett he also claimed that the strain they used (Anomolus) is closer to Brett Brux than Brett C.

The interview is streamed here, www.basicbrewing.com/radio/ (October 19th)

ErikH
11/27/06 10:52 PM  
Re: 100% Brett brew
Hm. That would make sense. In Wild Brews, Jeff Sparrow notes that lactic acid can get converted to ethyl lactate, generating "soft, tart, fruity, buttery, butterscotch" flavors . . .
SteveG
11/28/06 10:09 AM  
Thanks Old Sock!
Man, great stuff, thanks a million for that lead. I posted it on both boards.
 
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