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JoeFleischman
07/26/06 07:07 PM  
Fantome = Awesome
Hey, I've searched this board, etc. Can anyone confirm wich new Wyeast strain is the fantome strain? Tasted a printeps the first time about 2 weeks ago, and am now thinking - at least to my tastybuds - one of the most awesome beers around. Tried to culture from the dregs but got a waaay overboard sour, lacto deal. What a truly wonderful beer. Incredible. Any hints, tips, secrets, guesses, comments?
Cisco
07/26/06 08:05 PM  
Re: Fantome = Awesome
Wyeast Biere de Gard 3725

The lacto comes from Fantome's brewing equipment.

SteveG
07/27/06 07:17 AM  
Re: Fantome = Awesome
Its important to understand Joe that Fantomes funky character can be hit or miss. If funky beer is your target you should learn to master wild bacteria first, make some lambics, oud bruins, etc. When you feel you have the experience to do a reasonable job controling that stuff then maybe you can find a wildcard like Dany has - that is to say a way to introduce a random fermentation element. But be carful what you wish for!
JoeFleischman
07/27/06 08:15 AM  
Re: Fantome = Awesome
Thanks guys. Fourth confirmation of Wy3725 so I'll definitely use it. I was thinking about adding some acidulated malt(an idea from another brewer on the Northern Brewer forum) to get some tang. I have absolutely zero experience brewing with bugs. But the spices? Herbs? Fruit juices? Any best guesses out there?

Does Dany still hit this forum? Alot of homebrewers seem to be on a first name basis with the brewmaster/owner of Fantome, it seems. I don't really want to clone the beers, just want to get somewhere in the ballpark to making such a fantastically complex and wonderful freakin' beer!

SteveG
07/27/06 09:30 AM  
Re: Fantome = Awesome
Dany hits the regular BBB but I don't think he's ever posted here. Joe, if youre really serious about success in making something like that then you really need to take the time to build a foundation of understanding regarding funky/tart brewing. If it were easy enough to do from absolutely zero experience brewing with bugs then everyone would be doing it! Sorry if this isn't the answer you want to hear. Start this weekend, make up a flanders type red and see what happens. Ask questions about the details, take notes and get to know how it works. A few years of that behind you and you'll be in better shape to take on a Fantome-inspired project. Till then, buy from Dany!
ErikH
07/27/06 10:41 AM  
Re: Fantome = Awesome
Joe, I had exactly your experience with Fantome yeast cultured from a bottle last year. Particularly b/c I added it to a batch that was already working based on the White Labs 565 Saison yeast plus some cultured from a bottle of Saison Dupont, I figured the Fantome might add that leetle bit of twangy edge that I liked (several friends have separately described good bottles of the regular Fantome as tasting 'bright' which I think is a good adjective).

Boy, was I surprised when the batch went strongly lactic in the secondary! I found it close to undrinkably sour (certain lacto-head buddies liked it, but I think they have particularly strong tooth enamel) at first, though it has mellowed over time. It is enjoyable now, but not at all what I was shooting for.

I actually had the opportunity to beard Dany P in his lair a few weeks ago during a quick trip to the Ardennes. He was a very gracious host and tour guide for our unplanned visit, particularly for enduring my barrage of questions! And Fantome straight from the tap at the brewery was indeed awesome. You can see him and his setup among my pics at:

http://ninthave.blogs.friendster.com/photos/belgium_trip_july_06/index.html

Anyhow, sorry to ramble! Hope that's helpful info.

Al B
07/27/06 11:25 AM  
Re: Fantome = Awesome
Like to share a few things that might help in sour brewing involving Lactobacillus and Pediococcus.

1. Lactobacillus/Pediococcus will continue to eat dextrins where Saccharomyces yeast cannot, so after a few weeks - if there is a drop in pH and you see small bubbles of CO2 - you've got Lacto. Pediococci will not give off CO2.

2. The use of alot of hops/alcohol can help inhibit Lacto.delbrueckii for example, but I have found this to be somewhat weak in affecting growth - and especially with recultured dregs (where these bugs are tolerant). I have a BW with Lactobacillus delbrueckii and it is souring just fine.

3. The use of Lysozyme (see More beer.com) in the wine industry to inhibit malolactic fermentation (Oenococcus) I have found to be effective against Lacto. + Pediococcus. Lysozyme is a naturally occurring enzyme that attacks this type of bacteria (but not others like vinagar-causing acetobacter) and I have not detected any off-flavors from its use. In this way, I have been able to inhibit further acidity in a particular brew (like a BW) before it gets mouthpuckering. The amount to use can vary depending on the amount of proteins, bacteria, particles, etc. in one's brew. (interestingly, any yeast in the brew, like Bretts, will start to metabolize off of the dead bacteria/lysozyme).

All in all, I think one gets more complexity using bugs than acid malt. Another option to avoid all this in your fermentor is to sour mash for a couple of days prior to brew day.

Happy brewin' -

Al RodenBuck

Cisco
07/27/06 11:44 AM  
Re: Fantome = Awesome
Al - so how much did you use in a 5 gallon batch to stop the bugs dead in their tracks. I've got a sour brown that I like as it is and this sounds like a better way to kill the bugs before I use the beer for blending rather than pasturizing it first before blending. By the way, that stuff is pretty expensive, $17 for 50 grams.
Al B
07/27/06 01:31 PM  
Re: Fantome = Awesome
Yeah, its expensive but has a long shelf life in powder form. This is the plan for me too with blending a sour brown. I have already begun with a Flemish red as well.

I can't remember exactly right now....but I think it was about 1 TABLEspoon/5gal. Again, I think it can vary alittle with the amount of wood, particles, proteins, sediment, etc. so I rack into another carboy when adding (don't heat the lysozyme).

Another note, it may take a week or so for full effects.

After blending with fresh brew, I monitor the pH.

Cisco
07/27/06 02:47 PM  
Re: Fantome = Awesome
So you just add the powder directly to the beer and stir gently???????

Have you done this already and if so did the blended beer not get any more sour??

Al B
07/27/06 03:17 PM  
Re: Fantome = Awesome
I dissolved it in some cold sterile water and added to the new carboy, then racked on top. So far, so good for one brew I've done - I check on the specifics with that tonight and report back.

The flemish red has been reduced significantly in numbers for bacteria, but still needs to be checked again soon.

Chet
07/27/06 03:33 PM  
Re: Fantome = Awesome
What I'd do is a long primary ferment with the WY3725, then dump the dregs from a Fantome into the secondary. This would help keep it from getting super funky.

The Farmhouse ales book has one recipe for a Fantome beer, but I don't recall which...might be a starting point for grain bill & spices.

SebastianP
07/27/06 03:46 PM  
Re: Fantome Yeast strains
Just a quick caveat here, Dany has stated that he uses a couple of different yeast strains in his various beers. The primary strain used in the Regular Saison may not be the same one he uses in the Printemps. As for the sometimes extra bugs in his brews, well you are on your own there.
Al B
07/28/06 08:45 AM  
Re: Fantome = Awesome
Cisco -

The brew I added lysozyme (1 tablespoon/5gal) is 6 months in the bottle and has not gotten any more sour.

Again, this would not work on bugs like Brettanomyces.

Al Bacillus

JoeFleischman
07/28/06 07:43 PM  
Re: Fantome = Awesome
ErikH -

Thanks for sharing the pics! Looked like an awesome time.

SteveG -

Thanks for the advice.

JoeFleischman
10/21/06 06:24 PM  
Re: Fantome = Awesome
Hey SteveG -

You were right dude. I just bottled up a Fantome Printeps clone attempt and the acidulated malt, while lending a nice tanginess, does not come close to what's in the actual F.Print. Another homebrewer mentioned that Fantome blends with a lambic - can anyone here confirm this?

SteveG
10/22/06 08:45 AM  
Re: Fantome = Awesome
>>Another homebrewer mentioned that Fantome blends with a lambic<<

I seriously doubt that. Fantome is not a lambic producer, so to blend with lambic Dany would have to secure the blending beer from another brewer. I'm sure we'd know if he was doing that.

Its worth mentioning that Al has isolated the bacterial components of Black Ghost and found four constituents. Good, but not close to what you find in lambic.

Sorry I got this one right Joe, but keep heart. Every attempt you make will strengthen your skills, give it some time and accomplish your goal.

Al B
10/23/06 08:06 AM  
Re: Fantome = Awesome
yeah, I have isolated 2 differnet Bretts for certain, but in low numbers and some lactobacillus. These are probably introduced late in the brewing process or maybe bottling in low numbers is my guess.

I have 2 Saccharomyces yeast isolated too. Although the second one is a curious strain. I'm not 100% sure what it is to be honest, but it is definetely interesting. I need to compare with WY biere de Gd.

I plan to brew with these bugs soon - report to follow.

JoeFleischman
10/23/06 08:19 PM  
Re: Fantome = Awesome
I'd definitely have to say that Wy3725 is one of the Fantome yeasts - some of the flavor profile is unmistakeable. Al B - do you know which Brett sp. are actually in there?
Al B
10/24/06 07:12 AM  
Re: Fantome = Awesome
Negative. I do not yet. They may be types of strains related to bruxellensis and lambicus species (there's probably a few). Also, they may be a differnet species altogether (which there are a fewof those), but they are not clausenii/anomalus.
 
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