Welcome to the homeBBBrew board!
Like the BBB, the homeBBBrew board is not a club, just a place to talk about making beer. Is there a swap you would like to see happen? If we can find a few others who have something similar then lets do it!

NO SPECIFIC REASON FOR THIS LINK...
I just really like the work levifunk is doing!

PASSWORD PROTECTION: READ THIS BEFORE POSTING!
YOUR BBB USERNAME AND PASSWORD WILL NOT WORK ON THIS BOARD! If you want to post, you need to read this.

HomeBBBrewBoard
HotLinks!
Brettanomyces Brewing
E-Symposium Transcript!

Trouble making Trappists?
Discover Liquid Candy Syrup!
See what color impact to expect from liquid candy.

Search for:
Page:  1 2
Author Replies
SteveG
09/24/06 08:49 AM  
Sebastian ... God damn!!
Hey man, I brought your extra gift bottle to Als place yesterday. Good environment since he has a couple Clausenii brews going too. F'in A dude, that beer was out of this world. It would be raved about if Russian River released it. Beatifully dry, a hair tart but in a very clean way with a great waft of peach. CO2 was high but by no means over the top, I went outside to open it but that was not necessary. Great job, he swings and sends it out of the park!

It was interestingly similar to Als experimental brews, clearly they had a strong common thread. They were an outstanding pair to have side by side.

I hope you don't mind me posting this, what I know is that it was 100% Clausenii, 4.5%. It sounds like you expect its evolution to significantly alter its profile, I guess that is consistant with my understandings but what a shame. Anything else you'd like to share? Love to know the rest of your numbers.

Bill S
09/24/06 10:39 AM  
Re: Sebastian ... God damn!!
So... Please Post more Sebastian! Malt bill, OG, etc. This sounds intersting based on the pineapple esters I had from Mo Bretta- peach would be an intersting twist.

Bill

Dave I
09/24/06 11:24 AM  
Re: Sebastian ... God damn!!
I too am interested. I've never brewed a Brett beer, but this sounds like a perfect beer for me. Let's see:

Belgian? Check.

Peach notes/esters? Check.

Rave review(s)? Check.

I would greatly appreciate any informtion you would be willing to give up on this (e.g. OG, FG, malt bill, hops, fermentation regiment, style/commercial example patterned after if any, how I can get Clausenii, etc.). By the way, where CAN I get Brett. Clausenii?

-Cheers

TedJ
09/24/06 02:10 PM  
Re: Sebastian ... God damn!!
White Labs WLP645
SteveG
09/24/06 03:41 PM  
Re: Sebastian ... God damn!!
Dave, though I am anxiously awaiting techie info too (thus can provide none) there is one comment I'd love to make. I'm not so sure the Belgian part warrents a check mark. Certainly the Belgians are not strangers to brett in general, but this strain - and the associated results - is not really what I've found in their stuff. My understanding of Clausenii is that it is more native to the stout/porter days in the UK - though in far smaller doses. If I tasted Sebs beer 5 years ago I would have argued against it being a brett beer tooth and nail! Live and learn I guess. But there in lay the beauty here. With all the brewing tradition established by the rest of the world we have a path here that I think is really an American persuit.
SebastianP
09/24/06 05:40 PM  
Re: Sebastian ... God damn!!
Stop it, I am blushing...

Seriously, I am glad that you enjoyed it Steve. This is certainly going to be a staple in my brew line up, and it is such an easy brew to do.

I am not expecting to hold on to my bottles for very long, thus I did not wait six months for it to dry out completely. The beer I brewed was split four ways, Wyeasts 3724, 3725, and 3726 where the conventional brews, and the last was with Whitelabs 645.

The recipe was quite simple

85% Dingeman's Pils

15% Briess Wheat Malt

Mash at 152*F for 90 minutes

Hops:

1oz 10% AA Chinook for 90min boil

1oz Tettnanger whole 2.9% AA at 10min

1oz Tettnanger at 5 min

1oz Saaz, German whole 2.7%AA for 5min

1oz Tettnanger at 0min

1oz Saaz at 0min

13 gallons to the fermenters

O.G. 1.044

F.G. 1.010

IBUs: 21

Fermentation Notes: 1 day at 86F, 6 days at 90F. Ramp down 2 per day to 76F, total primary fermentation time of 36 days. Secondary for 3 weeks, then prime for bottle conditioning to 4 volumes of CO2.

I was a little worried about the high primary fermentation temperature, but wanted it to be done under the same circumstances as the other Saison yeasts, so that there would be a direct comparison. Obviously I needn't have worried, as it is definitely my favorite of the 4 brews.

Interestingly enough the Brett had the fastest, most powerful primary fermentation, but took the longest, a full month, to become carbonated. I expect my bottles to slowly become explosively carbonated, which is why I plan on drinking them all soon, and I like the young Clausenii character more than the aged one anyway.

Oldsock
09/24/06 08:59 PM  
Re: Sebastian ... God damn!!
I've been looking for an all brett beer to make, and your's sounds excellent.

Just two questions:

1. How much brett did you pitch?

2. What temp did you secondary at?

Thanks!

SebastianP
09/24/06 09:33 PM  
Re: Sebastian ... God damn!!
Oldsock wrote

<<1. How much brett did you pitch?

2. What temp did you secondary at?>>

1. I pitched a 1 liter starter into 3 gallons of beer.

2. My secondary was at 78F

SebastianP
09/24/06 10:00 PM  
Re: Sebastian ... God damn!!
1. Actually make that a 1 pint starter
SteveG
09/25/06 07:08 AM  
Re: Sebastian ... God damn!!
I hope Al jumps in, he did a neat experiment regarding the effects of a pound of crystal malt. For what its worth, its my understanding that though Clausenii is shockingly aggressive intitially, it does not just drop out and go to sleep when its done. It will slowly chew away at the remaining dextrines. Based on that, suspicion of explosion is prudent! Maybe you could take a follow-up gravity reading from your last bottle?

My brett barley wine is into secondary as of this weekend. It went from 1.100 to 1.038 in a month and is amazingly clean tasting. I did deprive it of O2 to avoid an over-running of sourness and it looks like that was too effective. So there is reasonable headspace in the carboy as it lay down for its long winters nap. I'm counting on it dropping another .15 points and developing as this great bacteria can...

More info in April!

Al B
09/25/06 08:31 AM  
Re: Sebastian ... God damn!!
My compliments as well. I don't think it was over C02, the dryness and style is good for that amount.

Mine was extremely sour in comparison. The amount pitched in mine was the same. Mine started at 1064 and was only about 3 months old or so. Temp. 68-70F as opposed to 86-90F. maybe i gave it too much oxygen.

SteveG
09/25/06 10:04 AM  
Re: Sebastian ... God damn!!
Al, can you comment on your experiment with adding the crystal malt? What I found most interesting comparing them was the peach character of Sebastians and the (what I thought was) more appley character of yours. I wonder if the peach character is what the sourness becomes when it is tamed.

I think the effects of O2 will prove to be a huge factor in this effort. It might be interesting to brew a beer, split the batch but purge one carboy with CO2 before the wort goes in.

I also wonder if experiments will favor pasturizing the beer when it hits the desired flavor profile.

And one day I'd love to experiment with finishing with a different brett strain after the initial ferementation has slowed.

Al B
09/25/06 10:23 AM  
Re: Sebastian ... God damn!!
uuh...well.....its sour and not dry either.
Oldsock
09/25/06 03:58 PM  
Re: Sebastian ... God damn!!
Thanks for the clarification Sebastian. I think I will do a split batch with different fermentation temps maybe a mid 80's and a low 70's.
SteveG
09/26/06 01:17 PM  
Re: Sebastian ... God damn!!
Sebastian, something I find interesting is that the beer tasted very well attenuated but the numbers were not through the roof:

O.G. 1.044 / F.G. 1.010

I mean its a good fermentation but 1.010 is higher than I would have guessed. I wonder if some other character was coming off as dry?

SebastianP
09/26/06 01:25 PM  
Re: Sebastian ... God damn!!
Steve, it certainly does not taste sweet, so I know what you mean. Could it also be that you were comparing it to the much bigger beer that Al brewed? This comparison would certainly make mine seem much drier. Also the touch of tartness helps to dry out the character of the beer as well.
SteveG
09/26/06 03:51 PM  
Re: Sebastian ... God damn!!
Well, now that you mention it the previous beer was a US-type barley wine of Als! Fantastic job, I've had no shortage of professionally brewed ones that were inferior. If you ever wanted to sell someone on the idea that homebrewer can actually outshine the pros this would have been the night.
Al B
09/27/06 10:33 AM  
Re: Sebastian ... God damn!!
I think best way to go on Brett sole fermentation is not to oxygenate the wort (but use alot of slurry). Oxygen seems to create more acid (more acetic than lactic) which confirms "Wild Brews" info. Of course not oxygenating the wort this goes against normal operating procedure.

Again, I oxygeanted my starter culture, and the pH dropped like a bat out of hell in 24hrs.

Sebastion - did you oxygenate the wort prior to pitching?

If so, the higher fermentation temperature will also have less O2 dissolved too. This seems to be the key for "a little tart" vs "sour" .

The higher ferm temp may have also made that brew more peachy vs apple.

Dave I
10/22/06 11:24 PM  
Re: Sebastian ... God damn!!
Sebastian, how long did it take your Clausenii beer to ferment and mature to drinkability? I'd like to steal the recipe and make it this spring, and am curious how long I will have to go from pitching the Brett. to pouring a pint of it. Also (this is open to comment from anybody), do (or should) all-Brett beers ferment/age/mature quicker than lambics?

-Cheers

SebastianP
10/23/06 12:25 AM  
Re: Sebastian ... God damn!!
Dave I wrote

<<Sebastian, how long did it take your Clausenii beer to ferment and mature to drinkability?>>

Actually, I was quite suprised at how fast this beer was finished with its primary fermentation. Alot of this had to do with the temperatures, but it was completely done after about three days. I did do an extended aging of about a month in the primary and again almost another month of secondary, but it actually did not move down in gravity any significant amount over that period of time.

I bottle conditioned it with enough sugar to carbonate it to 4 volumes of CO2, and it has remained remarkably stable up until this point (now at 3.5 months in the bottle). I am fully expecting the Brett to slowly work on the residual higher sugars in the beer, but that has not yet happened.

I would still be wary of long term bottle storage, but I have been quite pleasantly suprised with the performance of the Clausenii so far; it is almost as if it is just another, albiet funky, strain of yeast.

In the end, based on my experience of primary fermentation at 90*F ambient (at least 95*F in the fermenter), I would be confident of bottling this brew after 1 week in the primary and another 2 weeks or so in the secondary. I will certainly be trying this out come next spring, so we shall see.

Baums
10/23/06 10:45 AM  
Re: Sebastian ... God damn!!
I think Sebastian hints at an interesting question. Does anyone have evidence that in the absence of pediococcus, brettanomyces actually can/will "slowly work on the residual higher sugars in the beer"?

Both Sparrow's "Wild Brews" and Raj B. Apte's Flemish Red page seem to suggest that despite the intuition most of us probably have (that brett is superattunuative) it is really enzymes produced by the pediococcus that leads to superattenuation in lambics, etc.

If so, perhaps Sebastian's bottles are safe, and as he says brett (clausseni, at least) may be like regular brewer's yeast with regard to attenutation...

Al B
10/23/06 11:30 AM  
Re: Sebastian ... God damn!!
Brettanomyces, from a microbiologist POV, have the ability to break down complex sugars/dextrins slowly. They have their own enzymatic activity to break these down into smaller glucose and/or fructose sugars. I have seen bretts in a secondary fermenter grow exponentially without lactic bacteria.

They do work synergistic w/ Pedio, especially when Pedio creates "ropy" polysaccharides. They also enjoy autolysed cells for protein, vitamins, lipids, etc.

Sebs brew sounds like it was low in dextrins - a product of lower temp. mashing perhaps and/or the combination of high temperatures (which seemed fine for this strain). Also, he used alot of Brett yeast cells! I doubt the Belgian air holds 400ml of pure Brett slurry....yuk.

I do think it should be fairly stable by now too.

Al Bruxellensis

Dave I
10/23/06 02:01 PM  
Re: Sebastian ... God damn!!
This is only indirectly related to Seb's brew, but is there any threat of autolysis with Brettanomyces or Lambic beer? I read something about Brett eating dead yeast, but I am not sure if in an all-Brett beer the Brett will eat itself or whether or not that is good or bad. Lambics I am unsure of.

I'm getting Wild Brews and Farmhouse Ales this Christmas so I don't need the real long version unless anybody feels like typing.

-Cheers

Al B
10/23/06 02:36 PM  
Re: Sebastian ... God damn!!
All cells die off sooner or later - I doubt the bretts will cannabalize itself, but perhaps to the extent of survival only and not growth.

Lambics are an enigma. So many factors involved, certain by-products from organisms enhance growth of others and so forth. That's a reason some brewers favor not racking off of the sediment - to ensure nutrients for these wild bugs. Those are good books.

SteveG
10/23/06 02:38 PM  
Re: Sebastian ... God damn!!
Dave, Al and I were just going back and forth on this Saturday. Nobody can give you the details like him (except N8!) but the short of it is when brett goes cannibal its an OK thing. Brett will not only make use of sugar, it will make use of sediment.
Mike T
01/20/07 01:18 AM  
Brewing this one tomorrow
Planning on brewing this puppy tomorrow (first attempt at a 100% brett brew), my 1.5 L starter is chilling now. Brewing as written except for a rewrite on the hop bill based on what I have on hand and personal taste.

Planning on using yeast harvested from this one for a Mo' Betta Bretta clone (half of which will get toasted oak and dried cherries rehydrated in wine). I'm looking forward to comparing the two to see how the lactic acid in Mo' will change the Brett character.

Comments? Conserns?

--------

SebastianP's Brett C (Inspired Brew)

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics

----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 3.50 Wort Size (Gal): 3.50

Total Grain (Lbs): 5.75

Anticipated OG: 1.044 Plato: 10.95

Anticipated SRM: 3.2

Anticipated IBU: 20.5

Brewhouse Efficiency: 72 %

Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

82.6 4.75 lbs. Pilsener Belgium 1.037 2

17.4 1.00 lbs. Wheat Malt America 1.038 2

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.

Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

0.50 oz. Sterling Whole 6.00 15.7 50 min.

0.25 oz. Mt. Hood Whole 4.10 2.0 10 min.

0.25 oz. Mt. Hood Whole 4.10 1.1 5 min.

0.25 oz. Sterling Whole 6.00 1.6 5 min.

0.25 oz. Mt. Hood Whole 4.10 0.0 0 min.

0.25 oz. Sterling Whole 6.00 0.0 0 min.

Extras

Amount Name Type Time

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.00 Unit(s)Servomyces Other 10 Min.(boil)

0.50 Unit(s)Wirlfloc Fining 15 Min.(boil)

Yeast

-----

White Labs WLP645 Brettanomyces Claussenii

Water Profile

-------------

Profile: Pale, Medium Hop

Calcium(Ca): 59.0 ppm

Magnesium(Mg): 7.5 ppm

Sodium(Na): 11.0 ppm

Sulfate(SO4): 72.0 ppm

Chloride(Cl): 61.0 ppm

biCarbonate(HCO3): 23.0 ppm

pH: 8.25

SebastianP
01/20/07 02:50 PM  
Re: Brewing this one tomorrow
Looks good Mike.

I know some here recommend not doing it, but I have had good luck oxygenating normally as for a regular sacharomyces fermentation. Expecially in a beer of this gravity the light acidity produced by the Brett works quite well.

cheers,

sebastian

Mike T
01/20/07 10:27 PM  
In the fermenter
Cool. I had been planning on going without intentional aeration, but I just gave it a good 20 second shake. I pitched about 5 hours ago and it already looks like the brett is kicking into gear.

Really looking forward to this one, I'll post results whenever it's done.

Mike T
02/23/07 10:42 AM  
Re: Sebastian ... God damn!!
Bottled this one last night, I primed to get around 3.2 volumes of CO2 to play it safe. I ended up with slightly higher attenuation than Sebastian, 1.048 down to 1.009. It tastes spectacular even uncarbonated and at room temp, I cant wait to have the first carbonated bottle in a couple of weeks.

I added part of a pack of US-56 to half of the beer a few days back, Im interested in seeing how this will impact the speed of carbonation (I assume much faster) and the evolution of the beer (possibly less funkiness in the long run since the saccharomyces will be eating the priming sugar, or more if the Brett uses the US-56 as a nutrient source). Any thoughts or experience?

CDH
02/23/07 09:24 PM  
Re: Sebastian ... God damn!!
Hold on. I just looked over the original recipe, and I'm having trouble buying it.

An ounce of Chinooks for 90 minutes will in no way ever keep your IBUs to 21. Plugging that recipe into a calculator tells me to expect 39 IBUs doing a full boil, and near 30 doing a 100% dilution of the boiled wort.

Anybody care to explain what's going on here? Is it a bitter/sour Orval kind of beer, or is an oz of Chinook not the right bittering hop?

Dave I
02/24/07 12:32 PM  
Re: Sebastian ... God damn!!
Sebastian, this is sort of an off-topic threadjack, but only partially. Two questions:

1) How did the Tettnang and Saaz go together? I am thinking of using them in conjunction in an upcoming batch so would welcome your input.

2) Since you have experience with those hops, do you think they would go together well in the following recipe? Feel free to blast it apart if it looks like it will not turn out so hot, and that goes for anybody:

5.5 Gallons

54% Efficiency

OG: 1.111

IBUs: 94.3

Mash: Two-Hour Single Infusion @ 146

Boil: 60 Minutes

Possibly caramelizing 1 gallon of wort down to about 1 pint

Grains:

22 lbs. Maris Otter__________________________________________ 71.0%

5 lbs. Durst Dark Munich_____________________________________ 16.1%

3 lbs. Toasted Malt (Maris Otter toasted in oven at 325*F for 25min)___ 9.7%

1 lb. CaraPils or some Caramalt (for head retention)__________ 3.2%

*0.25 oz. Roasted Barley (*Optional)

Hops

2.0 oz. YakimaMagnum Pellets ____14% AA____87.8 IBUs___60 min. boil

2 oz. German Tettnang Pellets ____4.5% AA___13.6 IBUs___ FWH

2 oz. German Saaz Pellets _______4.3% AA___ 10.6 IBUs___ FWH

Dryhop with 1 oz. Tettnang and 1 oz. Sterling

Yeast: CL-50 Yeast Cake

-Cheers

  Page:  1 2
Return to Forum

Post a Reply
Your Name:
Subject:
Message Body:


 
   
Username

Password

Around Bruges in 80 Beers: 2nd Edition

Around London in 80 Beers

Around Brussels in 80 Beers


Babblebelt contributors in attendance: