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N8
10/02/06 01:57 PM  
lambic innoculation schedule
So, I'm going to be brewing a lambic with a brew pal on the T-day weekend. We were discussing the plan of action and we have pretty much decided to go with a 10 gal batch each, using a turbid mash, of course, and then split it into 5 gal and let one 5 gal get all jiggy with the ambient wild yeast floating in the Eugene, OR valley. The other 5 gals will be innoculated with a neutral yeast such as 1056, then at the end of fermentation pediococcus will be added, then after 6 months Brettanomyces will be added.

My question is, has there been any of you that have made a lambic, and if so, what was your innoculation schedule?

Al B
10/02/06 03:14 PM  
Re: lambic innoculation schedule
N8,

My first lambic schedule went like this:

Primary - Saccharomyces wheat yeast

Seconadary - Lactic bacteria- 1 week, Brettanomyces - after 1 week. This turned out awsome unblended in 1 year, but then I added cherry puree and the whole thing went crazy (Too much unfermented cherry puree and a high population of brett I suspect). It was like a horse died in swamp-mud with smokey ash tray is about the best I can describe. Make a Billy-goat puke.

After a long hiatus from lambic brewing...........

My second batch earlier brewed this year:

Primary: 4 or 5 strains of Belgian yeast, plus a sherry yeast (If I recall I used WY Belgian wheat, Roeselare yeast in there) 1 week or so.

Secondary: Lambic Blend (small pouch - 50ml) and Brett. clausenii.

So far so good.

I figured if the brew is well fermented in primary, the Pedio and the bretts will compete against each other for remaining nutrients, dextrins. I understand yer philosophy of a schedule.....gives you a sense of control.

SteveG
10/02/06 03:21 PM  
Re: lambic innoculation schedule
Though I mostly go ambient now-a-days, when I have made lambic with commercial fermenters it has been handled much like Als. Some nuetral ale yeast then rack and add the usual suspects into the secondary. Then crack yourself over the head to forget its there and re-discover it 2 years later.
N8
10/02/06 03:43 PM  
Re: lambic innoculation schedule
Cool, thanks for the schedule idears.

I'm getting my schedule from the Wild Brews book. It was stating that by adding the pediococcus after fermentation, then brett after 6 months it is introducing the orgainsms at the times in the process that are most beneficial to the that organism. By adding the pedio first after fermentation it helps drop the pH to the desired levels to set up for the brett.

Another thing it mentioned was to be careful or even avoid the use of lacto. Because it can overwhelm the resulting concoction with too much lactic acid.

TedJ
10/03/06 11:48 AM  
Re: lambic innoculation schedule
I'm also getting ready to do my first lambic and rereading parts of Wild Brews. Steve, I see that you racked from primary to secondary. I thought that Jeff recommended against racking, that sacc yeasts will break down and provide food for brett growth down the road. Another school of thought?

Also looking for whole soft white winter wheat. Anyone use the pre-gelantized flaked wheat in a lambic instead?

SteveG
10/03/06 01:12 PM  
Re: lambic innoculation schedule
Didn't read Sparrows book but I can say that I definatley get a Brett presence even though I rack. This is sort of a outside observation, but considering how diverse traditional lambics are I would have to believe there are many schools of thought.

I'll look through old notes, but I'm sure I have used pre-gelantized flaked wheat. It only took one stuck spage to test that one! I have no notes or specific impression regarding this shift in grain choice except to say I have nothing negative to report about it. Its SOP now for me.

Al B
10/03/06 01:58 PM  
Re: lambic innoculation schedule
There's a few schools of thought, alright.

The breakdown of old yeast do supply the bretts with nutrients - which may be needed if inoculated at 6months.

Heck, Bretts will eat just about anything I think- I've read it also eats up any proteinaceous ooze produced from Pediococcus.

I used flaked and even Bulgar wheat once.

With ambient or spontaneous fermentations, I would tend to think that low amounts of lactic + wild yeast will fall in and inoculate (rather than a few million cells from an activator pouch) - hence the need for alot of complex dextrins for over a long haul. So anywho, I'm not if a specific type of wheat is critical, but a turbid mash/unmalted wheats of some sort makes sense for ambients and longer scheduled inoculations.

SteveG
10/03/06 02:51 PM  
Re: lambic innoculation schedule
>>unmalted wheats of some sort makes sense for ambients and longer scheduled inoculations.<<

Interesting, you mean because it would contribute something other than sugar that other bacteria would eat. Never thought about it like that, hummm.

Al B
10/03/06 02:59 PM  
Re: lambic innoculation schedule
No , I mean the Saccharomyces yeast. the bacteria and Brett yeast, and other wild things will compete for those dextrins , in my opinion, until certain conditions favor a particular bug.

I guess if you even more backwards, until CO2 is produced, ya get those other bacteria bugs like Acetobacter.

N8
10/03/06 03:26 PM  
Re: lambic innoculation schedule
The turbid mash is to help break down the starches into more user friendly chains for the bugs to get happy with. There is another schedule in the Wild book for those that don't do a turbid mash. I don't recall what it consisted of, though.
Oldsock
10/03/06 10:05 PM  
Re: lambic innoculation schedule
The other mash is what Wyeast uses in making lambic test batches. Its essentially a cereal mash, all the wheat plus .5 lbs pils at 140, heat to a boil and hold for 30 min, then mix in cold water and the rest of the barley hold at 158 for 2 hours. It is my understanding that a turbid mash is supposed to not only gelatinize the starches for conversion, but also save some of these starches for the bacteria/brett to munch on after the sacc eats all the sugar.

I made my first p-lambic two months back and used the Wyeast mash. I just didn't have the effort for the 10 step turbid mash. Seemed to produce a nice hazy/starchy wort, but results won't be in for a few years.

I just went with a pack of Wyeast mixed culture and one of Raj's toasted oak leg carboy toppers. Hopefully it will turn out well.

 
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