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css
10/04/06 01:20 PM  
two row pale malt in blegian ales?
Hello to everyone - this is my first post.

I love brewing Belgian-style ales and had a question about two row pale malt. Is it ok to sub in a two row malt for a pilsner malt in say a blonde or a triple when drying the body out with sugar?

Thoughts?

Chris

www.shoremanorganicales.com

css
10/04/06 01:21 PM  
Re: two row pale malt in blegian ales?
Helps to spell it right i nthe subject, dir - Belgian Ales!!!!
Cisco
10/04/06 02:30 PM  
Re: two row pale malt in blegian ales?
No! Not if you want the color and flavor to be correct for the style.
N8
10/04/06 02:48 PM  
Re: two row pale malt in blegian ales?
2-row is a type of grain. the difference between pale and pils malt is very subtle. The pale malt is kilned to usually about 2-4 Lovibond. Pils malt is typically at most 3 lovibond. You can still make a perfectly respectable Belgian blond/triple with pale malt, but like Cisco said, it won't exactly be to style for color. It might be a lovibond or two darker, gasp! I don't think you would be able to detect the slight difference in flavor.

For that matter, alot of Belgian brewers blend pale and pils malt to make triples and the like.

SteveG
10/04/06 03:22 PM  
Re: two row pale malt in blegian ales?
N8, are you sure about those Lovibond numbers? I did a grain comparison chart back when I first made www.belgianstyle.com. I should mention this was 10 years ago. But I did research it thouroughly. I got 2.7-3.8L as the pale malt range with 1.4-1.8L as the pils malt range. If these figures are right then pale ale malt can be nearly 3X the darkness. Man, are these figures dated? If so I have some work to do!!
css
10/04/06 03:48 PM  
Re: two row pale malt in blegian ales?
Do you guys ever experience DMS with using 100% pilsner malt in you blondes or triple? I may be getting a bit in my blondes and have heard that DMS cannot occur in pale malt.
css
10/04/06 03:49 PM  
Re: two row pale malt in blegian ales?
For example - check out this Abbey De Rocs bill:

DES ROCS AMBREE - Pale and Munich malts, Hallertau and Brewers Gold hops

I know it is for the amber, I may give this a shot, usually I would make an amber with pilsner then just color it with a little chocolate or something.

N8
10/04/06 04:31 PM  
Re: two row pale malt in blegian ales?
No Steve, not positive. But, I don't see it as three times darker, really. If you used all pils malt rated at 1.4L, and made a similar beer with only pale malt rated at 3.8L, there will a bit of color difference. That' s adifference of 2.4L, which I don't think I could tell much difference in, other than the pale would be a shade darker.

There is a difference, but I still see as slight.

CSS, DMS can occur in pale malt. This from BJCP guidlines: DMS, or dimethyl-sulfide produces the aroma and taste of cooked vegetables, notably corn, celery, cabbage or parsnips. In extreme cases, it may even be reminiscent of shellfish or water in which shrimp has been boiled. DMS is normally produced by the heat-induced conversion of S-methyl-methionine, but most of this evaporates during an open, rolling boil. A closed boil or slow cooling of the wort may therefore lead to abnormally high levels. Some DMS is also scrubbed out during a vigorous fermentation, which is why lagers and cold-conditioned ales may have slightly higher levels than warm-fermented ales. Wild yeast or Zymomonas bacteria may produce high enough levels of DMS to make the beer undrinkable. Low levels of DMS are appropriate in most lagers, particularly American light lagers and pre-prohibition pilsners, but are not desirable in any ale style.

TedJ
10/05/06 12:26 PM  
Re: two row pale malt in blegian ales?
Another subtle difference between pale and pils malt that really doesn't make a difference to a homebrewer is the modification. The pale ale malts tend to be fully modified where as the pils malts are not quite as fully modified. This will make a difference to the big brewers who are squeezing efficiency (homebrewer adds a couple of extra ounces of malt). The pils malt will also have slightly less power to convert adjuncts due to lower enzyme levels. Again little impact to homebrewer, we adapt.
SteveG
10/05/06 01:25 PM  
Re: two row pale malt in blegian ales?
N8, true, 3X nothing is pretty close to nothing!

CSS, DMS is a yeast thing. Is that not the calling card of Rolling Rock?

RonD
10/21/06 11:49 AM  
Re: two row pale malt in blegian ales?
Although DMS could be caused by pils malt the most likely culprit is not cooling the wort quickly enough. Cooling too slowly or letting the wort sit hot too long before cooling would cause DMS to form.
SteveG
10/21/06 01:53 PM  
Re: two row pale malt in blegian ales?
Hi Ron, your name looks new - welcome! I didn't know that about DMS production, is then yeast strain not a factor?
RonD
10/24/06 10:56 AM  
Re: two row pale malt in blegian ales?
Steve,

In a way yeast strain would be a factor because more DMS is produced at lower fermentation temperatures, thus lager yeast strains would produce more DMS. Here's quotes from a couple of brewing books that might help clarify the matter(or cloud it, as the case may be). "Yeasts are capable of reducing dimethyl sulphoxide back to DMS and this may be one source of DMS present in finished beer".-Malting & Brewing Science, Vol. II. The Dictionary of Beer and Brewing clarifies statement about slow cooling thus, "DMS is released during boiling as a gas that dissipates into the atmosphere. The precursor of DMS, S-methylmethionine, remains present in the wort and converts to DMS if the wort is not cooled rapidly enough (in less than 45 minutes in homebrewing)or if it is allowed to sit after cooling."

Hope this helps in understanding DMS formation.

Ron

SteveG
10/24/06 02:28 PM  
Re: two row pale malt in blegian ales?
Thanks Ron, that does in fact add clarity! DMS is not something that's plaqued me over time so I guess I'm not that up on it cause I've not had to deal with it. I make a few lagers over the course of a year but my cooling proceedure is pretty quick, looks like that would explain why. I click out of this thread a little bit smarter!

Hope you find the place informative and choose to stick around. Steve

 
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