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Author Replies
shoreman
01/03/07 02:25 PM  
westmalle tripel clone hops?
I'm working on a westmalle tripel clone and "Brew like a Monk" has the hop list as tettnanger, goldings and saaz.

What order would you put those in?

SteveG
01/03/07 03:17 PM  
Re: westmalle tripel clone hops?
Depends on the specifics of the crops - higher alpha first. My guess is more times than not that would put Goldings as the bittering hop, which works well as the other two are nobles.
shoreman
01/04/07 11:22 AM  
Re: westmalle tripel clone hops?
What's the rational behind "High Alpha's First"?
Loren
01/04/07 12:23 PM  
Re: westmalle tripel clone hops?
OT but Chris...a local NY brewer made a Westmalle cloned Tripel with all American hops. It dramatically added complexity beyond your wildest dreams. Low IBUs...but tons of great hop flavor.

Just an FYI idea.

Cheers!

Tripel666
01/04/07 12:51 PM  
Re: westmalle tripel clone hops?
To me it matters which hop(s) you like for flavor. The bitterness charge will not give hop flavors, just bitterness.
shoreman
01/04/07 01:13 PM  
Re: westmalle tripel clone hops?
Loren - sounds cool - do you know what types?
shoreman
01/04/07 01:17 PM  
Re: westmalle tripel clone hops?
Interesting:

www.specialtybeer.com/beer,index,st._bernardus_tripel.html

Alexis and Prisma malts, Target and Styrian Golding hops

SteveG
01/04/07 02:02 PM  
Re: westmalle tripel clone hops?
shoreman, something I picked up from a weekend "advanced homebrew" seminar put on by the AOB back in the 90s. Boiling low alpha hops for a long time extracts bad things from them. Or, if I can remember right, (it was like 10 years ago) I think the instructor said it extracts the "wrong" things from them. He developed beer in a U of Cal/Davis lab for a living so I took it to heart. As a general rule I stay away from low alpha hops when bittering. Tettnanger and be very low alpha, and often Saaz is too. Golding (by this I mean East Kent, my understanding is that Styrian is actually a type of Fuggle) can be medium high, more times than not it would be the big boy of the bunch.
Mike T
01/04/07 02:58 PM  
Re: westmalle tripel clone hops?
There is a thread on the NB board about cloning this beer now: forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?t=24774

Here are the three proposed hop schedules, doesn’t look like much consensus, but most people seem to think their clones are pretty good.

75 minutes boil

1.80 oz. E.K. Goldings 5.7% FWH, 24.0 IBU

1.06 oz. Spalt Select 4.75% 75 minutes, 14.1 IBU

0.67 oz. Czech Saaz 3.2% 10 minutes, 2.7 IBU

180 minutes boil

0.90 oz. Styrian Goldings Pellet 5.25 18.2 60 min.

0.90 oz. Tettnanger Tettnang Pellet 4.50 15.6 60 min.

0.50 oz. Czech Saaz Pellet 3.50 1.8 15 min.

0.50 oz. Tettnanger Tettnang Pellet 4.50 2.3 15 min.

70 minutes boil

1.00 oz. Czech Saaz Pellet 3.80 3.6 First WH

2.00 oz. Hallertauer Whole 4.80 23.1 60 min.

0.50 oz. Tettnanger Tettnang Pellet 4.00 4.1 30 min.

1.00 oz. Czech Saaz Pellet 2.80 1.5 5 min.

Loren
01/09/07 06:55 AM  
Re: westmalle tripel clone hops?
Low bitterness but he used Simcoe, Sterling and Cascade and then dry hopped with whole leaf Amarillos.

Quite unique...in a style I typically find boring as all hell.

Unspiced as well.

shoreman
01/09/07 10:14 AM  
Re: westmalle tripel clone hops?
What's boring about a triple? Can you go a little further in to that? Do you like strong goldens better?

Thanks for the info on the hops - I may just make something off pace from the normal hops, who knows. I've been digging this german hop called Saphir - I've only seen it organic (of which I brew all my stuff now) - it's been really nice in wheats.

Loren
01/09/07 11:40 AM  
Re: westmalle tripel clone hops?
Most have no character besides the yeast which gets tiring time and time again. Might as well drink 9% Bud.

:-)

Saphir is a Hallertau type right? Cool.

Tripel666
01/09/07 11:54 AM  
Re: westmalle tripel clone hops?
Loren- Wow Tripel's taste like Bud????!!! :(
SteveG
01/09/07 12:02 PM  
This is a homebrew board.
Please bring talk of commercial beers and who tastes like Bud over to the regular BBB.
Loren
01/09/07 12:11 PM  
Re: westmalle tripel clone hops?
No problem SteveG. Just answering shoreman's question.

Cheers!

SteveG
01/09/07 12:27 PM  
Re: westmalle tripel clone hops?
10Q!

shoreman, are you saying you now brew with only organic hops? What is the difference? Does organic in this context mean that there are no pesticides used or that sort of thing?

Loren
01/09/07 02:04 PM  
Organic hops
One more butt in, since I like hops.

www.breworganic.com/index.asp?

PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=217

Organic hops have come a long way in recent memory (more than just Organic NZ Hallertau!). A local brewpub made an Organic Double IPA that was out of this world. I was heritant it could be pulled off with organic hops...but sure enough. Best beer they've put out yet.

shoreman
01/09/07 03:53 PM  
Re: westmalle tripel clone hops?
Thanks Loren.

Steve G - these are all organic hops - you cna read more at breworganic.com. I actually brew full organic now with malts, sugars, hops, etc. Check out my site for info - www.shoremanorganicales.com

The biggest difference I have seen is in the clarity of my ales and the higher efficiency, higher efficiency = less money spent on grain.

I love brewing organic.

Stan Hieronymus
01/10/07 12:22 PM  
Re: westmalle tripel clone hops?
Westmalle does change hops from time to time, depending on crops, so what's in the book is a snapshot in time.

Brother Thomas - retired - was really into ingrediants, be it selecting barley or hops. Remember that the first beer he did at Achel was 1.040 but around 35 IBUS and had 5 hop additions.

Most recently they were hopping with 90% flowers and 10% C02-extract. The hops were Stryian Goldings (bittering, from Slovenia), German Tettnang, Czech Saaz and an unnamed hop.

The bittering hop addition is for 60 minutes and the other hops are added 20 minutes from the finish on in.

happy Feet
01/10/07 10:30 PM  
Re: westmalle tripel clone hops?
Stan,

Can you give a little more information on how bottle conditioning converts harsh solvent like flavours to softer esters? I have noticed the change, but not sure how to explain to friends. Love your book!! Also, do you have any idea what spices and hops are used in Hennepin from Ommegang? I brew 10 gallon (40L) batches and would like to get as close to Hennepin as possible. I was down to the States over Christmas and sought this beer out. Fantastic….wish I could bring a case home, but not allowed to carry on the liquids Thanks!

SteveG
01/11/07 06:51 AM  
Re: westmalle tripel clone hops?
Re: Hennepin - ginger is an important one. Not enough to taste, just enough to create a mild burn sensation in the throat. That one came straight from Don Fienburg.
Baums
01/11/07 10:24 AM  
Re: westmalle tripel clone hops?
I would love to hear what Stan has to say about Happy Feet's question.

For what it's worth, my current understanding is that the solvent like flavor comes from the ester ethyl acetate, and that the "de-harshening" process is the breakdown of this ester over time, into its two components (ethanol and acetate/acetic acid, both of which are less flavorful in equal quantity). If the yeast "run out" of something (cell material, nutrients, etc) during the ferment, they can produce levels of ethyl acetate that are far higher than the chemical equilibrium point in the beer, so over time these very high levels degrade to that point. Also I think other esters (some harsh and some not) may go through the same process.

But it is also my understanding that almost nobody has a definitive answer for why harsh beers sometimes get better. Stan might, or if not, maybe Dr. Neven at Duvel provided some pearls in the BLAM interview...?

There is a paper by Dr. Neven following the various compounds as a beer ages... but I think the beer in question *started out good*, so that paper may not explain exactly why a harsh beer gets better...

Stan Hieronymus
01/11/07 10:48 AM  
Does bottle conditioning make beer better?
I think Baums gets right to the key point when talking about the effects of bottle conditioning. It can make a very good beer better, but it won't necessarily make a solventy beer good. Better is, of course, a relative term.

(I have bottles of beer - that will be used in cooking, to make vinegar or perhaps schnapps - to prove that.)

It makes a harsh beer seem less harsh - as a function of time and the ongoing gentle fermentation that takes place in bottle conditioning. There's more going on than that, but if you need a catchy phrase for you friends say "more of the higher alcohols are integrated into the beer."

The time to take care of solvent tastes is in primary fermentation - making sure you provide enough yeast, oxygen, start the fermentation cool and let the energy generated take it to the temp where you get the "right" esters.

You'll still go to secondary with a beer that seems really intense - maybe quite fruity/banana depending on the yeast. Those are the esters you expect to smooth out. First in secondary and then in the bottle. Remember, Westvleteren 12 can spend 10-12 weeks lagering. A lot more than a pilsner.

As to Hennepin. Sorry, I never talked to them about that. Steve mentions a good point about the ginger. Much of what Don Feinberg set out to do was to use spices to create texture.

Ross Lunato
01/11/07 12:00 PM  
Re: westmalle tripel clone hops?
Hennepin uses Grains of Paradise, Orange Peel, Ginger, Coriander, Styrians Goldings for bittering and Saaz for aroma/flavor. Go to the Boston Wort Processors web page and download their 2001-01 Brewprint magazine from their archives. On page seven they interview Brewmaster Randy Thiel who gives valuable information about brewing Hennepin.

Hope this helps.

Happy Feet
01/11/07 08:05 PM  
Re: westmalle tripel clone hops?
Thanks to all, great forum. Anyone know if you can get Ommegang beer in Canada?? Also, what yeast would you suggest for Hennepin? Ross, thanks for the website.

Be Happy!

Ross Lunato
01/12/07 11:15 AM  
Re: westmalle tripel clone hops?
The closest yeast to Ommegang you can get without culturing from the bottle is Wyeast 1388 or White Labs WLP570.
 
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