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Brian Richards
01/30/07 03:11 AM  
Roselare ---> Whitelabs
I was looking on the wyeast site and I didn't see the Roselare listed on there. Does anyone know where I can get my hands on it or does anyone have any info as to which white labs strain is most similar to the roselare? I have been inspired to try my hand at my first beer with bugs. I want to do a flanders red after I listened to the Jamil Zeneschef show last night, kind of got me psyched on it. He ferments out partially with WLP 001 (trying to get a partial fementation to leave some sugars behind) and then he recommends to pitch a roselare blend to take care of the rest. probably will to a 10 gallon batch. Any help,...Much appreciated.

Brichards700

SteveG
01/30/07 09:42 AM  
Re: Roselare ---> Whitelabs
I pitched the straight Roselare blend and got good results, though in sampling beers from it I always had the impression it needed more than one generation to really express itself. So I passed the slurry to Al, he built it up a few generations and adjusted the bug balance to a more favorable level - then passed it back. I brewed what were, IMO, 3 killer beers with it. So I guess I disagree with Jamil Zeneschef. I just think in most cases if you get the blend and brew only once you're missing the boat. I don't know for a fact that subsequent beers would have improved without the AlB factor, but that is still my belief.
Mike T
01/30/07 10:25 AM  
Re: Roselare ---> Whitelabs
Rumor is that Roeselare blend is now a summer seasonal (you may want to email Wyeast to confirm). As for alternatives, the white labs sour blend would be the only thing in the ballpark from them, aside from simply selecting multiple strains (brett, lacto, saccro) yourself.

I did my first Flanders Red in August right before the blend went away, and as of last time I tasted it (about a month ago) I would agree with Steve that the sourness was not as strong as I would have expected. Im planning on using the oak that is in this batch to inoculate another batch after I bottle this one in the summer.

Good Luck

SteveG
01/30/07 10:34 AM  
Re: Roselare ---> Whitelabs
Once you get your hands on the goods I think the best thing to do - if possible - is to keep the thing going between one or more trustworthy beer-making friends. Or plan to make 3 or more beers with it. Ideally both. The point would be to get a few generations on it, starting off with beers that would work well if the Roselare effect was not detectable. I made 4 beers, Rodenblonde, Rodenbruin (X2) and Rodenblack. The Rodenblonde worked nicely as a sort of Abbey single and very drinkable, but in terms of making a Rodenbeer of sorts it was a dismal failure. I think both Rodenbruins kicked ass, by the time I got to the Rodenblack I thought it was starting to imbalance towards sour.
Mike T
01/30/07 11:10 AM  
Re: Roselare ---> Whitelabs
Very interesting, although not a positive sign for my brew. Could you elaborate on your procedure? Timing, yeast harvesting method, aging schedule etc

Are you doing it just like a regular yeast cake, pitching it to primary, waiting for a few weeks for the main fermentation to occur and then racking to secondary to age/sour?

Brian Richards
01/30/07 11:22 AM  
Re: Roselare ---> Whitelabs
Thanks for the feedback Steve/Mike. If I get my hands on some I would have no problems getting at least three batches going with it between me and my brewing buddies.

Chet
01/30/07 11:23 AM  
Re: Roselare ---> Whitelabs
My experience with the first generation Roseslare was that it didn't get sour enough, although aroma wise & flavor wise it was right on the mark.

I really don't get the idea of pitching a neutral yeast prior to the Roeselare - it has normal yeast as well as wild & bacteria - it seems that it would further decrease the sourness.

I'm going the blending route. When it was announced that the Roeselare was going to seasonal, I loaded up on 6 packs.

(apologies in advance to those I've bored with my grand scheme before...)

I've used two so far, then pitch a second beer on the dregs (following primary fermentation with a neutral yeast). At some point, I'll put a batch on the yeast cake for primary ferm as well - I've heard this will cause it to become very sour. If needed, might do that a couple of times.

4 batches are done so far out of a planned 12 - could be more if a particular batch is substandard. Hopefully at some point, 55 gallons total will go into a red wine barrel. There'll be enough left over to top off the barrel from time to time; then when sampling indicates it's just right, I'll pull 5 gallons out to keg & replace with fresh beer post primary.

If I get really ambitious, I'll bottle a sixer of each separate batch prior to blending for a vertical tasting - you'll all be invited to Lower Michigan for the event!

Jim Denier
01/30/07 12:50 PM  
Re: Roselare ---> Whitelabs
Chet,

"I really don't get the idea of pitching a neutral yeast prior to the Roeselare - it has normal yeast as well as wild & bacteria - it seems that it would further decrease the sourness."

I made my first batch of sour ale (Fl Red) a year and a half ago. It has since been bottled and is doing very nicely, and winning in competitions. My strategy was to do the primary in a SS fermenter w/ a neutral Sacch. yeast (e.g., WLP 001), then transfer to a 15-gal oak barrel and pitch the Roselare starter. Some 8 months later, I split the 15 gal 3 ways, keeping a base beer and adding Raspberry and Cherry purees to the other two portions. So, I basically did the Sacch primary to avoid any potential contamination from the Roselare.

Jim

Cisco
01/30/07 03:36 PM  
Re: Roselare ---> Whitelabs
My first generation pitch of the Roesalare blend turned out great - but I did let it sit for one whole year. I split a 10 gallon batch into two glass carboys. Each carboy has a different profile after a year. So you can get the proper sourness out of the first pitch but you have to be very patient. I'm going to have bottle some of this into champagne splits in the near future.
Chet
01/30/07 05:17 PM  
Re: Roselare ---> Whitelabs
That makes sense Jim - I use a dedicated primary bucket for my sour beers (although I'm not convinced it's necessary).

Brian Richards
01/30/07 05:42 PM  
Re: Roselare ---> Whitelabs
The reason, He said, that he pitched the cal ale first to partially ferment it out was that if you didn't the perfect conditions during fermentation that there was a chance that you could get to much on the side of vinegar notes so he partially ferments out with a cal ale yeast to leave less sugars for the bugs to play with. He also said that it was totally fine to not use the cal ale. My house is very warm so it had crossed my mind to do it the less traditional way.

I believe he said he does 10 gallon batches split up into 1 plastic bucket and 1 carboy so you can blend the two to your liking.

SteveG
01/30/07 07:44 PM  
Re: Roselare ---> Whitelabs
Mike, I am a pretty low tech guy when it comes to reusing yeast (though Al is changing that!). I'm a yeast cake recycler. I don't have timing handy, but I can say it was months - but not too many. Like 2 or 3. Maybe 4.

Brian, I used the blend 4 times with no acetic bacteria influence. That might be a factor of timing, all of my beers were brewed when the temperature was a bit low for them to flourish.

Brian Richards
01/30/07 08:31 PM  
Re: Roselare ---> Whitelabs
Thanks Steve, I think I will use it by itself granted I can find it.
Dave I
12/23/07 04:30 PM  
Re: Roselare ---> Whitelabs
Hey Steve, or Al, or anybody else in the know . . .

How long should I let the first beer sit on the Roeselare in the secondary before transferring it and putting a second beer on it? For instance, can I let Batch #1 sit in secondary with the Roeselare Blend for a week, then transfer it to a tertiary and transfer a second batch onto the Roeselare and then let both batches sit that way, or will I need to let Batch #1 sit longer with the Roeselare before transferring? My assumption is that enough Roeselare bugs will transfer to keep transferring Batch #1, just want to make sure there will be enough maturing of the bugs in that week for it to make Batch #2 even more sour so I can see how the bugs develop over generations.

Let me know if that is not making sense. And Happy Holidays to everyone!

-Cheers

 
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