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02/05/07 09:40 AM  
Berliner, holy friggin cow
The Clausinii Berliner is now onw week old. I made it last Sunday, pitched the conservative slurry Al passed off and stood back. It began fermenting within a day, within 2 days it was performing just as yeast would. It was pretty amazing. It had slowed by the weekend so I decided to go ahead and make BCbeer #2, a saisony thang. I made the wort then tranferred the Berliner to a keg to continue its slow progression.

The first thought that ran through my head as the beer entered the keg through the racking hose was "Jesus this smells like a triple". I took a sample for the hydrometer and took another good whiff - no, not a triple in aroma, it's hefe weizen. Bready, banana, ohmygod Al must have grabbed the wrong sample to hand off! But wait, I smelled it before pitching. Last year when Al was just getting acquinted with BC he described the aroma as "cheese and toenails". When I took my snif I thought "yep, Al nailed it!". Truely disgusting aroma, could never be confused with yeast. So then this had to be the right stuff - but HTF could it be such an aromatic dead-ringer for a hefe??

The hydrometer read 1.008, not bad for this stage, and the sample tasted bready and perfectly sour! Just enough tartness, very lacto baccilus in taste. Friggin' wow. I started to think if you wanted a Berliner for a party and only had 2.5 weeks to pull it off maybe you could swing it with BC. I mean I think if you could live with the 1.008 final gravity and fine the beer at that stage you could force carbonate and it would be a fantastic Berliner. I'll tell ya, when brewing with Clausinii expect the unexpected. The stuff pulls off the most amazing yeast impersonation!

02/05/07 10:25 AM  
Re: Berliner, holy friggin cow
Wow indeed!

All of the brett brewing experiments going on here are a fantastic resource. I am getting all sorts of ideas for fun things to do with brett in the future beyond enjoying the Roeselare effect.

Thanks for adding to the literature like you've been doing.

Brian Richards
02/22/07 02:06 AM  
Re: Berliner, holy friggin cow
I am going to try something like this in a few weeks. Would it be wise to get the BC going way ahead of time so I get some good growth before hand. I just have a white labs vial, not a vial that has been grown up to a gigantoid pitching amount.
02/22/07 06:25 AM  
Re: Berliner, holy friggin cow
Brian, I think the answer to that is always yes regardless of whats in the vial. I suspect even moreso with BC though. Has anyone here fermented with the stuff right out of the tube?
02/22/07 02:29 PM  
Re: Berliner, holy friggin cow
Steve, did you only use WLP645? No Lacto?
02/22/07 02:57 PM  
Re: Berliner, holy friggin cow
I guess, Al gave me a developed dose of BC. But yes, that was all - no lacto. At the one week point its sour level was perfect. I have a feeling other things will come into play and change that, but lets see...
Brian Richards
02/22/07 06:49 PM  
Re: Berliner, holy friggin cow
Just curious, what kind of recipe did you use here, I'm trying to decide what I'm going to do for sure.
02/23/07 07:33 AM  
Re: Berliner, holy friggin cow
Nothing unsual, a little pils malt, a little wheat malt. I think I based it off the Classic Style Series Wheat book. The only thing I wanted to test here was the effect of the fermentor.
02/23/07 10:39 AM  
Re: Berliner, holy friggin cow
About how long does it take for the effects of a lactobacillus culture/packet/tube to kick in? How long for the sourness and any flavor components to show up? Brett takes AT LEAST a few months, how long for the lacto?
02/23/07 11:11 AM  
Re: Berliner, holy friggin cow

If you pitch a Wyeast "Lactobacillus Delbrueckii" packet near the end of fermentation, in my experience (twice) the beer will take a long time to sour, if at all, even if kept at 70F or so.

On the other hand, people have repitched the Wyeast Roselare blend and found successive batches get more and more sour (Steve?), and the best explanation for this may be that the lacto multiply enough to "take over," so it seems that if you have *enough* Wyeast lacto bug you can sour fairly quickly.

Al B a while back provided some insight into working with lactos. Also, since then I've looked more into building up lacto starters and discovered some things. When trying to grow up a ton of lactobacillus, a stir plate should NOT be used--the literature I've seen shows that l. delbrueckii dies off much more quickly with oxygen than without, as the acid rises. You don't really want to give it oxygen. In fact, supposedly lactos sour better in conjunction with yeast because the yeasts keeps the oxygen scrubbed out.

Also, homofermentive lactos like l. delbrueckii ferment 1 gram of sugar into almost 1 gram of lactic acid. They generally dies off at more than 0.5% lactic acid, though some strains can get to 1%. So that says a lacto starter should not be more than 0.5 Plato--and probably less.

Also, it's helpful to know that gueuzes tend to be 0.3 to 0.5% lactic acid. So, it is hard to get full gueuze-like sourness by souring only a fraction of the wort with lacto and adding it back. But you can definitely get a nice tartness.

I have tried applying all of this to the Wyeast lacto culture, and found some strange things. I'll start another thread for that sometime soon.

02/23/07 12:11 PM  
Re: Berliner, holy forever cow
I too used the German Wheat book recipe (50/50 wheat/barley) two years ago. However, I used the Wyeast German Ale #1007 and a tube of Wyeast Lacto #4335, no brett. It was slow to carbonate (couple of months) and no tartness so I left in the cellar until it was a year old. At that point it was a crystal clear 3% wheat beer with just a very slight touch of tartness in the finish. I entered it as an American Wheat and took a Second. Drank some of it last summer as a lawn mower beer.

Now its two years old and still not a Berliner, but it is amazing that it hasn't oxidized. So I'll finish it this summer when it gets hot. The lacto tube was fresh so I don't know what went wrong but for me Lacto is very slow, or dead.

Al B
02/23/07 01:38 PM  
Re: Berliner, holy friggin cow
Ted -

I've seen others use Lacto at the same time as yeast in the primary since the gravity is so low on Berliners. That usually helps in some sourness. The other parameters would be ferm. temp. and population of the Lacto, of course.

But it sounds like You used a tube, was it after primary?

Al Bacillus

02/26/07 11:41 AM  
Re: Berliner, holy friggin cow

The tube of lacto went in the primary with the ale yeast. I think I pitched the 1007, ran the air pump a couple of times to oxygenate, and then after removing the air stone, pitched in the tube of lacto. So the lacto went in a few hours after the ale yeast. Since I was keeping it in a different location in the basement, the temperature was in the lower 60's, fine for the 1007 but maybe not for the lacto?

Al B
02/26/07 12:28 PM  
Re: Berliner, holy friggin cow

It sounds like the Lacto culture was either dead or slow to revive vs. yeast population/lower temperature/low gravity.

One thing, lactobacillus doesn't really like alot of oxygen - it may have prevented its growth in a timely manner since lactobacilli are microaerophilic.

Even though the tube was fresh, perhaps in shipment it was real hot, or real cold. Curious. Try a lacto starter next time just to be safe - with no oxygen.

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