Welcome to the homeBBBrew board!
Like the BBB, the homeBBBrew board is not a club, just a place to talk about making beer. Is there a swap you would like to see happen? If we can find a few others who have something similar then lets do it!

NO SPECIFIC REASON FOR THIS LINK...
I just really like the work levifunk is doing!

PASSWORD PROTECTION: READ THIS BEFORE POSTING!
YOUR BBB USERNAME AND PASSWORD WILL NOT WORK ON THIS BOARD! If you want to post, you need to read this.

HomeBBBrewBoard
HotLinks!
Brettanomyces Brewing
E-Symposium Transcript!

Trouble making Trappists?
Discover Liquid Candy Syrup!
See what color impact to expect from liquid candy.

Search for:
Author Replies
Al B
04/10/07 12:03 PM  
Brett + sugar uptake
Just out of curiosity, I placed this Brett isolate I have from a Fantome brew in a battery of carbon sources for its nutritional uptake.

The brett strongly fermented the following sugars:

Glucose, fructose, maltose, mannose, galactose, sucrose, trehelose, turanose. But not lactose.

The following sources were a weak reaction, but over a course of time may be more strongly utilized:

dextrin, arabinose, raffinose, cellubiose, lactic acid, acetic acid, hydroxybutyric acid.

OK, so its lactose-intolerant!

Baums
04/10/07 12:28 PM  
Re: Brett + sugar uptake
I recently checked out some older editions (2nd and 3rd, from about 1970 and 1984) of "The Yeasts: A Taxonomic Study." A while back I mentioned that the latest edition (4th) was not very helpful for brewing, because the historical notes from from the people who first isolated these bugs had been purged. The 3rd edition is not much better.

But the 2nd has some cool stuff (and I bet the 1952 1st is even more interesting). Lots of notes on the brewery strains, their names and similarities, etc. Furthermore, the names of the commercial strains probably have their roots in these old descriptions.

Anyway, from what I remember, the strains that were once called "b. claussenii" and "b. anomalous" would ferment lactose, but b. brux and lambicus would not (and interestingly wouldn't ferment cellubiose--the "sugar in the wood"--either). I will have to double check on the anomalous in the photocopies I made. By the way, strangely ("anomalously"), the b. anomalous strains were slow to ferment maltose, if they did so at all.

Al, do you have access to these texts, from a library or somewhere? They have all of their protocols spelled out, and there's a pretty decent chance you could figure out what someone like Claussen or Dekker would have identified this brett as. (Maybe you already know this...)

Also--none of the brett strains were determined to be able to ferment soluble starch. Zero. But, I don't remember what the time scale of the experiments were.

Al B
04/10/07 01:01 PM  
Re: Brett + sugar uptake
I don't have those, I have only a few references and they are somewhat incomplete as you know. From what I can gather so far, galactose/trehelose/lactose were key sugars. You're right about clausenii.

I think this isolate is related to lambicus species since it ferments galactose (bruxellensis does not from this ref). It also appears morphologically similar to lambicus on malt agar - but the Fantome brett is more estery.

Starch is a big molecule - much bigger than dextrin. Starch was not fermented by this isolate after 1 week.

Jimbo
08/03/07 05:19 PM  
Re: Brett + sugar uptake
Hi guys, I've been lurking here a while. It's great reading and I have little experience so I don't typically post. Here's is my situation: I have two different brews going. One is a chai milk stout that has B. brux in the secondary and 8oz. lactose in it for creaminess/sweetness. The other was another brew that had B. clausenii in its secondary, but is now bottled. What do I have to do to the racking cane/tube to ensure that I don't contaminate my milk stout with B. clausenii during bottling? I'm afraid its ability to ferment lactose will lead to exploding bottles.
Cisco
08/03/07 07:13 PM  
Re: Brett + sugar uptake
Jimbo - Ideally you should have two complete sets of racking canes and tubes. One for clean beer and the other for "infected" beers. I even have two stainless steel bottle fillers.
Jimbo
08/03/07 07:55 PM  
Re: Brett + sugar uptake
So iodophor won't cut it, huh? Looks like I'm gonna end up needing three sets: One for B. clausenii, one for Brett brux brews, and one for regular. Thanks for the info Cisco, I think I'll play it safe per your advice. By the way, should I store this equipment in separate cupboards, or is that over the top?
Sweasty
08/03/07 09:04 PM  
Re: Brett + sugar uptake
As long as you clean and sanitize your equipment properly after use, there shouldn't be any infection issues. I wouldn't worry too much about having separate racking/bottling equipment.
BPotts
08/03/07 11:08 PM  
Re: Brett + sugar uptake
I'm glad you brought this up.....I just transfered a saison fermented with the WY Farmhouse Ale yeast and the dregs of a Fantome Hiver (thrown right in, diluted in the last 1/8th of the bottle) into the secondary tonight. It's been going in the primary for about 2 1/2 weeks.....It smelled just like a fantome and tasted quite like one as well...I am very pleased to say the least....It has already acheived a nice bretty character.....anyhow, I've been pondering when might be a good time to bottle this beer....I know bretts can super attenuate but I was reading the thread earlier on the stability of clausenii used as a primary and whether it mattered if I aged it long or not in the secondary. I used 6 lbs. of 55/45 Wheat DME and 1 lb. of honey and it seems the brett has already grown quite strong which would support the sugars you found to be easily digested by the culture. I'd rather bottle this sooner than later for a competition coming up....do you think it would be okay to bottle sooner than later or will it super attenuate to an unpredictable amount? I was thinking I could just add half the amount of sugar I might usually use for a 5 gallon batch....
Jimbo
08/04/07 12:31 PM  
Re: Brett + sugar uptake
So what's the consensus? Is it okay to just sanitize per usual or is that a big risk? Also, I usually just rinse my racking cane/tube/bottler with very hot water after use. I'm using one of those self-priming racking canes which may allow more opportunity for Brett infection, but if I can just use bleach and/or iodophor it would be great. That way I would just need two sets (one for Brett sp., one for regular) instead of three. Of course, there seem to be two schools of thought with Brett: The laissez-faire crowd that says to just sanitize per usual and everything will be fine, and the ultra careful "Brett is the ultimate contagion - get separate equipment and store it in separate houses" crowd. Sweasty, what sanitizer do you use and have you had any cross infection? Thanks to all of you for your responses-this is such a helpful crowd.
BPotts
08/04/07 12:51 PM  
Re: Brett + sugar uptake
I think a general rule of thumb is try and keep things seperate but I also know hard plastic CAN be cleaned with high alkalide cleaners and soft plastics/rubbers should just be replaced (or kept seperate). If you go the cleaning route I would just think one would have to be very meticulous. I just keep two sets. I guess if you're trying to keep different brett. strains seperate I would just thuroughly clean and replace tubing etc. I always ferment in glass which is much harder for the brett to get a hold on opposed to plastic.

Cisco
08/04/07 01:32 PM  
Re: Brett + sugar uptake
I'm very anal about cleaning and sanitizing using iodophor but it still makes me feel better having separate equipment for transferring and bottling. I do however ferment in the same stainless steel conical fermenters and I boil my valves after every use and then fill the fermenter with iodophor on brew day. With proper cleaning and sanitizing procedures with stainless steel I wouldn't worry about cross contamination. However anything that is plastic should be dedicated for the particular strain. Each brew season (Oct thru April) I buy new hoses and toss them at the end. When brewing with bugs, it is better safe than sorry!
Cisco
08/04/07 01:35 PM  
Re: Brett + sugar uptake
"By the way, should I store this equipment in separate cupboards, or is that over the top?"

I would recommend storing the plastic materials separately.

Cisco
08/04/07 04:22 PM  
Re: Brett + sugar uptake
"By the way, should I store this equipment in separate cupboards, or is that over the top?"

I would recommend storing the plastic materials separately.

Jimbo
08/04/07 04:34 PM  
Re: Brett + sugar uptake
Thanks for the replies, that clears things up fairly well. I think I'll just invest in some new equipment as I don't need 5 gallons worth of brew spontaneously exploding out of its bottles in a couple months. My hobby would suddenly be frowned upon around the house. Up til now, my lady has been loving this "hobby that requires the use of so much bleach around the kitchen." Thanks again guys.
Baums
08/06/07 11:11 AM  
Re: Brett + sugar uptake
Racking canes, hoses, stoppers, and airlocks are fairly cheap. And if you use the same equipment for both, it can be very confusing if you get some excess phenols or some other off-flavor in a beer, and can't decide whether it came from your normal process or from brett contamination.

So I personally think it's worth it to eliminate a possible variable from your brewing, especially one that is so controversial and hard to pin down. (I say it's a possibility only because I don't *know* that it's not.) That said, I use the same glassware because it doesn't scratch easily and I am very sure it's possible to fully clean and sanitize it.

 
Return to Forum

Post a Reply
Your Name:
Subject:
Message Body:


 
   
Username

Password

Around Bruges in 80 Beers: 2nd Edition

Around London in 80 Beers

Around Brussels in 80 Beers


Babblebelt contributors in attendance: