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Author Replies
SteveG
05/16/07 09:39 AM  
Anyone have NHC luck?
I got my stuff back, did pretty well but placed nothing. My best scoring beer was the Berliner I will be sending out in a week. Got a couple 39s.
DBear
05/16/07 12:48 PM  
Re: Anyone have NHC luck?
Don't know yet. Below is a response to the status of the East Region sheets

"...you should have these by the end of the week. We believe taht they were mailed out on Monday, 05/14/07..."

Jim Denier
05/16/07 03:25 PM  
Re: Anyone have NHC luck?
Appears I got a 1st place (42) in my region for my Flanders Red. It also appears I'll be up against Jamil Z, among others, in the medal round for this category! Jeez!

It'd be fun to break open a bottle w/ you guys at some point during the Conference for some real feedback.

Jim

SteveG
05/16/07 04:57 PM  
Re: Anyone have NHC luck?
Awesome Jim!
Joelle
05/16/07 05:29 PM  
Re: Anyone have NHC luck?
Steve, are you sure you didn't place anything? I found this for the Northeast Regional.

beertown.org/events/nhc/1st_round.html#northeast

17. Sour Ale - Sponsored by

Max Score: 38.0

Min Score: 24.3

Avg Score: 30.4

# of Entries: 9

1. 17a Stephen Gale, of Landing, NJ

2. 17d James Green, of Macungie, PA, Lehigh Valley Home Brewers

3. 17c Stephen Gale, of Landing, NJ

SteveG
05/16/07 05:58 PM  
Re: Anyone have NHC luck?
Whoa. I got my score sheets back yesterday, the "place awarded" box was blank on all 3 of them. I thought that meant "sorry pal". Thanks for the info Joelle, suddenly I feel a bit silly not having known. In fact 38 was the combined score for the Berliner, 2 39s and a 36.
MarkM
05/16/07 06:32 PM  
Re: Anyone have NHC luck?
Congrats to both of you moving on to the next round (Steve 2x).

Jim Denier
05/16/07 06:45 PM  
Re: Anyone have NHC luck?
So Steve, now I've got you to contend with as well! Maybe I should judge the Sours category for the finals!!

Congrats,and may the best Babbler win!

Jim

TedJ
05/16/07 07:08 PM  
Re: Anyone have NHC luck?
Steve, Congrats, I judged your beers in Philly and the B Weisse was first one out of the chute and was clearly the winner when we got done. Now I need to know, sour mash or lacto? Your Oud Bruin was also very good but the straight lambic was a bit better.

My first time judging wild beers and glad I did with your beers in there.

SteveG
05/16/07 09:10 PM  
Re: Anyone have NHC luck?
>>Now I need to know, sour mash or lacto?<<

Ted, neither. The only fermentation agent to touch that wort was Brett C. To my amazement the sourness level and general flavor you encountered was 95% established 7 days in. It has remained very stable, the theory here is that such a low gravity wort deprived the Brett what it needed to make funky things out of the acids it initially created. Thanks for posting BTW, having a judge here who was actually involved is pretty neat!

Jim, out of left field there are two of us now! I have to be honest, though I am very pleased with how the Berliner came out - especially considering its experimental nature - and will serve it this summer with pride I don't believe what I have is national title material. But I guess we'll see.

Mike T
05/17/07 09:39 AM  
Re: Anyone have NHC luck?
Very cool Steve, congrats!

What was your temp/O2 regiment? Do you think it was the low OG that did it?

Iíve made a couple of all Brett C beers and neither of them are what I would call sour enough to be a Berliner. One batch with no O2 and high temps (mid 80s) came out very clean and another with pure O2, lower temps (high 60s) and some acid malt came out really funky, but not sour.

SteveG
05/17/07 10:17 AM  
Re: Anyone have NHC luck?
Mike, the temperature was on the cool side, worthy of lager fermenting. It was in my basement in January, mid to high 50s. No aeration. I left the wort outside overnight to cool it, and poured it into a carboy through a funnel with a fine screen. So some air got in there, but no fish tank pump or anything.

As far as your BC beers not being that sour, I bet at some point they were. Something I've learned from Al, BC first makes acid then breaks that down into crazy esters. But in this case the fermentation engine was insufficient for phase II, so the acid was formed then hung around.

Mike T
05/17/07 10:50 AM  
Re: Anyone have NHC luck?
Very interesting, I guess it makes sense that Brett can go that low because isn't the secondary ferment of Orval with Brett done in the 50s?
Baums
05/17/07 10:51 AM  
Re: Anyone have NHC luck?
Steve, Ted, whoever else has tasted Steve's berliner,

Do you have a feel for whether the sourness is lactic, acetic, or possibly citric? (I think citric acid is the primary acid in pineapple, by the way.) I still have a suspicion that citric acid could be kind of a missing link.

SteveG
05/17/07 11:04 AM  
Re: Anyone have NHC luck?
Mike, can't say, but I can say that the slurry Al gave me was, by his estimate, perhaps 20X what you'd get out of a poutch. I think the conditions there would be very different from Orval bottle conditioning. Even with a wort as low as 1035 there would be lots more for the BC to play with than in a primed bottle of Orval. I'm sure that would translated to a far more favorable fermentation environment.

Baums, got me! Love to know the answer though, my guess is the man who knows this is Al.

Joelle
05/17/07 11:37 AM  
Re: Anyone have NHC luck?
Mike, what was the OG on your two Brett C beers?
Mike T
05/17/07 11:44 AM  
Re: Anyone have NHC luck?
The First one was 1.049, the second was about 1.060

Further details (recipes, notes, tastings) on each can be found on my blog madfermentationist.blogspot.com/ (the first is First 100% Brett Beer, the Second is a Mo' Betta Bretta Clone)

TedJ
05/17/07 12:06 PM  
Re: Anyone have NHC luck?
Baums, which acid? Hard to say a month later, mixed in with 20+ other beers that day. I would love to taste it again and try to decide. Steve look at Peter G's score sheet, he's very precise and detailed and may give you an indication of how to characterize it. However, the idea of Brett in there was a surprise, not something that we would have expected, but a cool one. Definitly better that my attempt with lacto a few years back.
Joelle
05/17/07 12:11 PM  
Re: Anyone have NHC luck?
Sounds like Steve and Al are on the right track. Maybe it is the strength of the beer that is making the difference with the flavor profile.

Steve, out of curiosity what was the grain bill for you Berliner? I'm looking for something quick to make for Dan's birthday party and this sounds like it would do the trick. Thanks!

Joelle

SteveG
05/17/07 01:01 PM  
Re: Anyone have NHC luck?
Ted >>I would love to taste it again and try to decide.<<, I bet that could be arranged.

Joelle, I don't have it off hand, but I can say it was very simple, the grist came mostly from the Classic Series Wheat book. It was like lager malt and wheat malt, I think maybe 40% wheat. I don't think there was any specialty malt in it but I'll check. The biggest issue with this style is how to get it sour at all. The classic way is to introduce some lacto bug after primary, but I swear I have never seen that work. The Brett C. solution is the most effective - and by far the quickest - I've ever seen. Keep in mind here, IMO the key was the calibre of the slurry Al provided. Very healthy, pretty large and really looking to kick ass.

Joelle
05/17/07 01:05 PM  
Re: Anyone have NHC luck?
Cool, thanks Steve. Al, what would be the best way to get enough of the Brett C worked up from tube from White Labs for a 5 gallon batch with an OG around 1.035? Also, how long do you think it will take?
Al B
05/17/07 02:29 PM  
Re: Anyone have NHC luck?
Congrats Steve + Jim

Joelle,

The tube I had was several months past its date (got fer half price), and it took 2 weeks initially to get it going. Apparently others have had slow responses initially too. However, once you do get it going, treat it like any other yeast slurry - it will go fast. I think I gave Steve about 400ml slurry.

I have yet to find anything on citric acid from bretts in general, although it would not surprise me given the pine-apple flavor. The taste is definitely not acetic.

Baums
05/17/07 05:15 PM  
Re: Anyone have NHC luck?
Al,

In the "Oxygen and Brett Sourness" thread a while back I mentioned that one of the ATCC type culture descriptions for a claussenii strain claims it's a big citric acid producer. Patent 3733253 is referenced, and you can see it on Google Patent. Example 6 or 7 of the patent describes how the authors apparently produced a very large amount of citric acid (10000 ppm) using this claussenii strain in what I think was a 12P glucose solution with nutrients. I do not know if this is an "engineered" strain or not--although if I recall the patent is from the 70s and it did not seem that it was.

Anyway I found that pretty stunning. Especially considering how a citric taste is so often mentioned in descriptions of good lambic/gueuze. It seems *possible* that a citric acid is major component of at least some lambic, but that this has never been recognized. Not sure how likely that is, but if someone knows how to assay citric acid, it would be interesting to check som gueuze.

Baums

Al B
05/18/07 07:19 AM  
Re: Anyone have NHC luck?
Baums -

You are right.

I see there's also another ATCC strain indicating citric acid production. I think its a reasonable assumption that the WL strain also produces citric acid (and other acids to a much lesser degree). And isn't it interesting that it doesn't really produce any tetrahydropyridines ?

SteveG
05/18/07 09:10 AM  
Re: Anyone have NHC luck?
Zoooooommmmm! That was, of course, the sound of what you just said cruising over my head! Whatsa tetrahydropyridine? What's ATCC?
Al B
05/18/07 09:39 AM  
Re: Anyone have NHC luck?
Craaaaaaaash, Bam, Booooom. Fizzle......time for coffee...

ATCC is American Type Culture Collection - A bugfarm if you will.

Tetrahydropyridines - byproducts that are "horse blanket, goaty, mousy, meaty farm-animal.

Al Barnyard

Baums
05/18/07 10:40 AM  
Re: Anyone have NHC luck?
Good to hear the WLP claussenii doesn't produce a lot of tetrahydropyrridines. I agree that is interesting.

On the other hand, I recently bottled a 1 gallon experiment with pure WY b. lambicus (just Munton's DME to 1.045, bittered to ~20 IBU). After about a month, it has a (nasty) bread/urine taste, which I assume is tetrahydropyrridine based on the taste descriptions I've seen. Did you notice anything like this with the WY b. lambicus beer you made?

As for the citric acid thing, I wonder what is the metabolic pathway involved. If citric acid is a major player in claussenii souring, understanding that pathway might shed more light on how to control the sourness.

Al B
05/18/07 11:04 AM  
Re: Anyone have NHC luck?
The 100% WY B. lambicus I brewed started off mellow, like a rough pale ale. After a month or two conditioning in the bottle, it is a pleasantly tart, fruity, brett beer I would say w/ slight-to-moderate barnyard. It'll be in the Brett swap. The WY lambicus strain is a great bug.

I shy away from the bruxellensis strain though - can be very horsey by itself.

mikehahn
05/19/07 02:41 AM  
Re: Anyone have NHC luck?
Hi, I advanced an English Mild. My Saison with Claussenii didn't fare as well. Good luck to everybody! mike
SteveG
05/19/07 08:00 AM  
Re: Anyone have NHC luck?
Fantastic Mike, I havn't heard your name in too long. Fingers crossed dude!
LeOgAhEr
06/21/07 05:19 AM  
Hello people
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