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Author Replies
Baums
10/26/07 10:33 AM  
Re: A new way to aerate - using olive oil!
Actually, what I meant about the olive oil is that, when considered from the perspective of what yeast do with oxygen, how much oxygen they need, and how much olive oil would be "equivalent" to that, the amount that New Belgium themselves use seems too low to make a difference.

The calculation I did (see HBD5193 for details) suggested you'd want about 3 mL in 5 gallons. Then in HBD5197, Steve Alexander summarized a paper he read on the effect of adding fatty acids to wort, stating that the investigators "got their yeast to incorporate 1.1% of yeast mass as PUFA while New Belgium is only adding 0.003% PUFA as compared to yeast mass." (PUFA is polyunsaturated fatty acids.) Steve thought something like 7.5 mL in 5 gallons would be best--which is the same order of magnitude as my number, and arrived at by totally different means.

Anyway that's where I'm coming from when I say I think you probably need much more olive oil to make a difference.

Jimbo
10/26/07 02:27 PM  
Re: A new way to aerate - using olive oil!
Thank you Baums for directing me to those threads. They were very informative. I like Steve's idea of using flax oil for it's concentration of PUFAs. I'll probably use 1 mL like he suggests, 'cuz those numbers make a great deal of sense. I can't wait to get my 'Roided-Out Cyser going with these performance enhancing substances! I realize that it isn't a belgian type brew, but it will "push the homebrew envelope" and if folks around here are interested, I'll start a thread with my process/progress.

Jimbo

Jimbo
11/05/07 03:16 PM  
Re: A new way to aerate - using olive oil!
Well, I got the one gallon starter going yesterday with wlp099. Before I go adding the first bit of concentrated must, I've got a quandry. Would the PUFAs do the same thing as the monounsaturated fat that is created by the yeast through aeration or provided by the olive oil? In the article that you refered me to, this is not exactly refered to as a replacement for aeration. It leaves me wondering if the flax oil addition is going to accomplish the same thing or just enhance the yeast in some other way while leaving it needing aeration...What do you think?
BPotts
11/05/07 05:28 PM  
Re: A new way to aerate - using olive oil!
can't hurt to aerate as well, could it?
Jimbo
11/05/07 07:10 PM  
Re: A new way to aerate - using olive oil!
This is true, BPotts, and I plan to aerate as well, but as you know, musts/worts with very high gravities (~1.250)are notoriously difficult to aerate adequately. I don't have a setup for oxygenating the must so I need this extra boost to keep my yeasties happy. Hmmm. It sounds like I'm just gonna have to go for it if no one else wants chime in and clear things up for me...
BPotts
11/05/07 08:09 PM  
Re: A new way to aerate - using olive oil!
Right...and isn't the test to see if the olive oil will enhance otherwise in-adequate aeration practices?
Jimbo
11/05/07 10:50 PM  
Re: A new way to aerate - using olive oil!
Correct...and we're gonna know pretty soon 'cuz I just did it...
Baums
11/06/07 11:39 AM  
Re: A new way to aerate - using olive oil!
Well here's what I understand. Yeast use oxygen for primarily two purposes: to make sterols, and to pull hydrogens off of fatty acids. You're attempting to bypass this need by providing sterols from the apple juice, and providing fatty acids with the hydrogens already stripped off of them.

The question I think you're asking (whether mono- or poly-unsaturated fatty acids are better) boils down to "how many hydrogens should be stripped off of the fatty acids I provide?"

I don't know a full/complete answer, but I have one that's probably good enough for what you're doing. Among the lab experiments on which all of this theory is based, are some that demonstrate that sterols plus *linoleic acid* fully "substitutes" for oxygen (i.e. with all other conditions being satisfactory, yeast can grow anaerobically to an unlimited extent when supplied with this mixture). So while I can't name all the fats that will "work", and explain why, I believe linoleic is one of them.

Linoleic acid has 2 hydrogens stripped off and thus is polyunsaturated. Wikipedia gives olive oil as having 3.5-21% linoleic acid (big range), while flaxseed oil is given as 24%. So either way you should be good.

Also, as with nutrient additions I think there could be some benefit to adding more oil incrementally.

Jimbo
11/06/07 11:59 AM  
Re: A new way to aerate - using olive oil!
Thank you very much Baums. I used 1 ml flaxseed oil with my first 1 gallon ~1.260 gravity must which was added to a 1 gallon starter of ~1.070. This morning, the airlock is bubbling ~2 times per second. I will be adding incremental additions (maybe 0.25 ml) at each 1 qt. feeding of concentrated must. The brewlog can be found here, www.gotmead.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=412&topic=6039.msg49144;topicseen#msg49144, if you're interested. Before my next must addition, I will have purchased a hydrometer to get a much more accurate idea of the gravities I'm using. [slaps self in head for breaking hydrometer during process]
Baums
11/06/07 12:20 PM  
Re: A new way to aerate - using olive oil!
You might want to calculate how much yeast mass you'd expect to grow from each quart of must (using the Balling formula which should be google-able).

Then from the HBD discussion numbers you can probably figure out what percentage of that mass would be PUFAs in healthy yeast cells.

Then from the percentage of PUFAs in flax oil you can determine how much oil is therefore necessary to maintain healthy cells after each 1 qt addition of must.

Jimbo
11/06/07 01:38 PM  
Re: A new way to aerate - using olive oil!
What, you don't like my 'fly by the seat of my pants' approach? ;-) Haha! Great idea, though. I'll do that for future additions.
Jimbo
11/09/07 02:03 PM  
Re: A new way to aerate - using olive oil!
Baums, I searched out the Balling formula, but couldn't figure out how to use it to find the yeast mass. Maybe you could help me with this? If not, that's ok as the fermentation is going pretty well. In 4 days, it's down from a calculated, average OG of 1.164 to a measured SG of 1.052. I'll be adding more concentrated must tonight, but not a whole gallon. Probably a quart or half gallon. After that, when the SG goes back down to 1.05ish, I'll toss in more concentrated must. I'm aiming to push the WLPO99 to the limit. I'd love to know how to calculate the amount of PUFAs required for each addition, though, to avoid having an oil slick on my brew:-)
Baums
11/09/07 02:31 PM  
Re: A new way to aerate - using olive oil!
Jimbo, I should have been more specific. Balling did a lot of stuff. The formula I'm thinking of says "2.0665 g fermentable extract gives 1 g ethanol, 0.9565 g CO2, and 0.11 grams of loss" (got that from notes I had somewhere, not sure where I originally found it).

And we assume the "loss" to be increased yeast mass. So, about 5% of your sugar by weight turns into new yeast. This is a commonly used value for normal ferments--and yours is not a normal ferment, but you have to start somewhere.

Anyway using that you can figure out the mass of new yeast per quart of must. For instance if your must is 30P (?) that means there's ~30 grams of sugar in a quart, so fermenting that must will give you 1.5 grams of yeast. Can't recall the % of yeast that's fatty acids (you'll have to look that up from the HBD conversations) but maybe it's 20%, so you'd want maybe 0.3 grams of linoleic acid per quart of must. If flaxseed oil is 25% linoleic then you'd want 1.2 grams of flaxseed oil--and you can probably look up the density of flaxseed oil on wikipedia to figure out the mLs you'd need.

That's pretty seat of the pants too; but hey it's something.

Jimbo
11/11/07 02:41 PM  
Re: A new way to aerate - using olive oil!
Thanks Baums! Based on the nutritional info on my cider and the typical sugar conc. of honey, I'm looking at about 4300 grams of sugar in this recipe. 5% of that is about 215 grams of yeast. From wikipedia, flax oil is about 1 g/ml. If the original investigators "got their yeast to incorporate 1.1% of yeast mass as PUFA," then mine would need a little over 2 grams of PUFAs. Since oleic, linoleic, and linolenic acids are all C18 (figured this out from wikipedia and Baums,) the typical percentage of PUFAs useful in this situation and contained in flax seed oil should be over 90%. So somewhere between 2 and 3 mL flax oil should be needed.

That's a lot of seat of the pants supposition, but as you said, "it's something." Considering that I added one more mL with the last one gallon must addition of ~2.270 for a total of 2 mL for the batch, I'm pretty close to the mark. Thanks very much for your help, Baums! Now, if I can get this thing to dryness, it'll be about 24% ABV.

Baums
11/12/07 11:12 AM  
Re: A new way to aerate - using olive oil!
One quick thought--I don't think the oleic should be counted, because if I recall correctly oleic is saturated.

I'm kind of surprised flax oil is 1 gm/ml.

Anyway, good luck!

Jimbo
11/12/07 05:54 PM  
Re: A new way to aerate - using olive oil!
Yeah, you're right. It's really closer to 0.9 g/mL depending on the FA content, but I'm just estimating to see if I'm even in the right ballpark. According to wiki, oleic is a C18 MUFA so it should work fine. Sounds to me like the guys at New Belgium need to invest in some flax seed oil. I wonder if the potency improvement would warrant the price difference? Anyway, this technique really seems to be helping in the face of otherwise inadequate aeration practices. I'll be checking the SG tonight when I add some DAP. From the slight sulfur smell, I think I'm having a little nitrogen starvation in this honey rich must. Again, thanks very much for the help and advice!
Grady Hull
12/06/07 04:32 PM  
Re: A new way to aerate - using olive oil!
The amount I used was 1 mg / 25 billion cells but I'm sure I could have used more. On a homebrew scale that would be about 6 mg for 300 ml of yeast assuming 500 million cells / ml.
Jimbo
12/07/07 03:38 PM  
Re: A new way to aerate - using olive oil!
How, exactly, did you measure out mg amounts? A very good scale?

As a side note, the PUFA enhanced cyser is down to 1.036 and slowing down to damn near stopped (2 point drop in a week.) I'm pretty sure it's not gonna make it to dryness at this rate, but I don't think it's a failure of the flax oil process. I think it has more to do with the fact that I only did one step feeding with this huge must. I should have broken it up into smaller, quart sized step feedings to cause less osmotic stress to the yeasties. At 21% ABV so far, and considering my very inadequate aeration practices, I think the flax oil helped immensely. I will be doing more of this in the future - not just because I have a jar of flax oil to use up in 2 ml increments;-)

Baums
12/07/07 04:54 PM  
Re: A new way to aerate - using olive oil!
Thanks a lot for the info Grady. I guess 1 mg fatty acid per 25B cells works out to roughly 0.1% of the yeast mass. That's a lot more than we'd deduced from the other information we'd seen.

I'm curious about a question (and I fully understand if you can't answer it here). Do you think your yeast is propagated in such a way (i.e. large amounts of sterols and UFAs "stored up") that a quality fermentation could be obtained even without the olive oil (and no aeration of the wort)? I guess what I'm asking is whether the addition of olive oil is necessary to get the job done, or whether the oil more of a supplement to a process in which the yeast are "pre-oxygenated" before pitching (which from what I understand may be an increasingly popular way to do things).

Baums
12/07/07 05:00 PM  
Re: A new way to aerate - using olive oil!
Jimbo, 21% ABV doesn't sound like a failure to me either!
Jimbo
12/07/07 05:23 PM  
Re: A new way to aerate - using olive oil!
Yeah, and at 1.036, it's sweet like a liqueur. I was gonna back sweeten if it went to dryness anyway, so I'm not too disappointed. It spent about a week on some medium toast french oak chips that really gave it some depth. The flavor is very sweet honey soaked cider up front following with a hot alcohol finish. I'll likely rack it onto some stavin oak beans once I'm ready to get it off the gross lees. It's gonna require some serious aging to smooth out that hot finish, but that was the plan. This'll be bottled in 375 mL ice wine bottles and tasted every few months at special occasions as an after dinner dessert wine/liqueur.
Jerry
01/02/08 03:20 PM  
Re: A new way to aerate - using olive oil!
Based on this:

www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=215968

It looks like you can just add cholesterol to your growth medium (starter / wort) in the amount of 11mg / liter to support the growth phase anaerobically.

Now, since one egg yolk contains about 200mg of cholesterol, this is just about the correct amount to add to 19 liters (5 gallons) of wort in your fermenter.

Eggs yolks also contain fatty acids. I'm not sure if it is enough to support the growth phase of yeast in a 19 liter fermenter with no dissolved oxygen.

Who will be the first to try brewing a batch of beer with no aeration and 2 cc of flax oil and an egg yolk?

Of course, you'll have massive amounts of proteins in your wort. Maybe some crushed Beano tablets would help there? Or maybe a more pure source of cholesterol would be better:

www.fishersci.com/wps/portal/PRODUCTDETAIL?productId=5389143

Kind of pricey, but this is for science!

Baums
01/02/08 03:41 PM  
Re: A new way to aerate - using olive oil!
That's an interesting idea. Someone more clever than I could probably even think of a straightforward way to extract the sterols from an egg yolk while leaving at least some of the other stuff behind.

But as the wise man (Jim Liddel) once said, "air is cheap", so personally I'll stick with that.

Jimbo
01/04/08 04:39 PM  
Re: A new way to aerate - using olive oil!
"air is cheap"

Haha, so true!

That being said, for those of us who want to try too hard or can't get sufficient 02 into their wort, I like where this is going. Check this out, Jerry: www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/detail.jsp;jsessionid=AB8BF138B7FE2186CA5BDF0C3FEC637D?select=C78&byCategory=C292&id=3089

Dried Egg Yolk for sale with w/ 115 mg cholesterol per 2.5 tsp. Sounds safer than adding raw eggs to a fermenter. If this is added to cool wort in the fermenter, than protein haze shouldn't be a problem. Just to be safe, one could easily make an extract with some Everclear or just toss in some proteolytic enzymes. Beano won't work 'cuz it only works on carbohydrates, but there are tons of proteolytics on the market. Look for papain, bromelain, protease etc. on the enzyme ingredient lists in herb sections.

Nice idea, Jerry! It's gonna be a while 'til I do another huge brew, so somebody might beat me to trying this out;-)

Mark
01/06/08 09:12 AM  
Re: A new way to aerate - using olive oil!
Simple question:

When should the olive oil be added? To the starter, or when pitching yeast starter into the wort?

Debeerman
01/07/08 09:05 AM  
Re: A new way to aerate - using olive oil!
Can anyone help. Oil and water are not good friends. How do the folks at New Belgian add the oil so that it is available to all the yeast?
SteveG
01/07/08 10:00 AM  
Re: A new way to aerate - using olive oil!
Debeerman, read the very first note of the thread, there is an explaination of how its done. The amount of oil you add is so small its very difficult to even measure when dealing with 5 gallons.
Baums
01/07/08 10:38 AM  
Re: A new way to aerate - using olive oil!
"That being said, for those of us who want to try too hard or can't get sufficient 02 into their wort"

No need to put any O2, olive oil, or egg yolk in the wort, as long as your yeast have sufficient stores of sterol and fatty acid to begin with! (Easy to get with continuously aerated starter.)

Mark, I think you could use fatty acids and sterols ("olive oil and egg yolk") in place of oxygen whenever you want--in the starter, the initial wort, maybe even later in fermentation, depending on what you're trying to accomplish.

Jimbo
01/07/08 12:08 PM  
Re: A new way to aerate - using olive oil!
"No need to put any O2, olive oil, or egg yolk in the wort, as long as your yeast have sufficient stores of sterol and fatty acid to begin with! "

This appears to be true with regular gravity brews, but it seems to me that a huge brew with multiple step feedings (like my Huge Cyser) needs more umph than can be provided by just the starter. What do you think, Baums?

Baums
01/07/08 03:22 PM  
Re: A new way to aerate - using olive oil!
I think it's possible to "fully stock" each yeast cell in the starter. If that's true, then for a given ferment the only question (regarding sterols/UFAs/oxygen) is how many of these very healthy cells you need. Then, you either have to use that many cells, or if you use fewer cells then you have to somehow give them more sterols and UFAs during the course of the ferment (i.e. with olive oil, egg yolk, whatever). Personal choice I guess--to me, an extra pack or two (or ten) of dried yeast seems simpler and more proven, but maybe not more interesting...
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