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Caped Brewsader
06/21/07 07:33 AM  
dubbel recipe input
My family-in-law asked if I could brew something up for our annual trip down to the Ardennes this November. I need something interesting but not too far out since most of them are not real beer fans. They drink juipler and the occasional Westmalle Dubbel. A few of them do appreciate good beer though. Since it is the "IN-LAWS" and they are Belgian and I am American, I feel a little pressure. Could you guys give a little input on this recipe. I haven't plugged it into my software yet since I am at work but everything should be good but it may be a touch darker than style... but I like that.

OG 1.070 - 1.072

58% Belgian pils

20% Belgian pale ale

3% light wheat malt

3% CaraAmber

3% Special B

1% De-husked chocolate (800 EBC)

6% Candico dark candy syrup

6% table sugar, or maybe dextrose

IBU 20-22 with styrian goldings (60 min)

66C (150.8F) mash temp. mash for 90 min?

90 min boil

split batch ferment half with Wyeast 3787 and half with Wyeast 1762. Serve the better tasting one... maybe both.

I have read the previous threads about the concern some have with chocolate in the recipe but at 1% and dehusked I am pretty sure I am going to keep it in there.

Al B
06/21/07 09:46 AM  
Re: dubbel recipe input
Funny scenerio Caped Brewsader. Surprised your not going with WY 3522 (Ardennes). Not sure if this will be as dark as you think, but I think the key here will be focusing on the yeast (freshness, adequate pitch rate, and fermentation temps.)

I suspect the Pils will be fairly well modified, so you may be just fine at 60' mash to save time. Good luck!

Al Brune

Caped Brewsader
06/21/07 04:07 PM  
Re: dubbel recipe input
Yeah, I thought about doing something with the WY 3522, but I have both 1762 and 3787 on hand for something else I was going to try (Belgian Rye IPA). Next year I will plan it out better and perhaps do something along the N'ice Chouffe or Fantome line, or something

I plugged the stuff into BeerAlchemy and made a couple changes but its pretty much the same. My real questions where about the wheat and also maybe taking out the pale in favor of about 5% munich... but for some reason munich scares me in this one. Everything is inline for a standard dubbel except it is a little dark... not as much as I was thinking but it is just barely over BJCP style at 17 SRM. Nothing to fret over.

58.0 % Pilsen Malt 3.67 kg

20.0 % Pale Malt 1.26 kg

3.0 % Cara-Amber 0.19 kg

3.0 % Special B 0.19 kg

3.0 % Pale Wheat Malt 0.19 kg

1.0 % Chocolate Malt Debittered (800) 0.06 kg

Dark Candi Syrup 0.44 kg 7.0 %

White Sugar/Sucrose 0.32 kg 5.0 %

30g Styrian goldings at 60 min for 22 IBU

I am going for a 60 min mash at 67C instead of 66C

boil 90 min

22.5 liters split into two batches fermented with the two yeasts with adequate yeast starters. Ferment slightly on the cool side if I can.

06/22/07 02:30 PM  
Re: dubbel recipe input
So, why keep it on the cool side?

Belgian yeasts work so much better at warm temps, and can even come across as bready if fermented cooler. Some even have a hard time fully attenuating at a cooler temp.

06/22/07 02:54 PM  
Re: dubbel recipe input
Yes, I have had good results with 1762 in the high 70's no problem. CB, are you trying to avoid some flavor or ester in particular?
Caped Brewsader
06/23/07 08:32 AM  
Re: dubbel recipe input
The last time I used 3787 I got a really high phenolc character that I didn't like and am a little affraid of doing that again. Of course that was also a monster of a beer and that probably has more to do with it. I fermented that one around 80.

OK, I won't ferment cool but I'll try to not let it get up to 80 this time.

Caped Brewsader
07/01/07 05:29 PM  
Re: dubbel recipe input
So I brewed today and everything went good... sort of. I broke in a new mash tun and my efficiency went way up! Good for future but that meant this beer was going to be higher OG. Then I added the sugar... Og was lower than I was aiming for, even after the boost in efficiency of the mash. Anybody have good numbers on sugars because Beer Alchemy is aparently way off? Fermenters are happily bubbling away just a couple hours later! I also made one other mistake. When I went to make my starters a few days ago I notice that I had 3787 and 1214... not 1762. Ooops, I was supposed to buy 1762. Never used 1214. Any input on that?
Mike T
07/02/07 09:39 AM  
Re: dubbel recipe input
Any dry sugar (white, brown, candi rocks, unrefined etc…) is going to give you about 45 points in one gallon (that is to say if you add 1 pound of sugar to a 5 gallon batch it should raise the OG by .009). Did you add the sugar to the boil or post boil? Any chance that the sugar was simply not mixed into the wort well when you took a gravity reading?

My efficiency has been in the tank recently (53% on my last batch, a year ago I was averaging in the high 70s), just be thankful that yours is doing well.

07/02/07 11:07 AM  
Re: dubbel recipe input
1214 is well known for producing a lot of acetate esters (ethyl=solvent, and isoamyl=banana). Some people enjoy these at higher concentrations than others, of course. A large starter and good aeration are needed to limit the amount of acetate esters.

I am no 1214 expert--I only used it once, early on, used shoddy techniques, and got a very solventy beer. But I have heard several complaints about this ester thing, and so I think 1214 is just one of those yeasts that doesn't let you get away with lowish pitching rates/aeration. (Where WY3522, for instance, does.) So like I said I don't know how much is enough, *but if I had to guess* I'd say this yeast probably needs a full million cells/ml/P, with good aeration.

Hopefully someone else has a lot of experience with 1214 and can chime in with something more definitive. Failing that, if you were lower than that on the pitch rate or aeration then I'd think about pitching a sachet of good neutral dry yeast before the ferment starts to slow down. The only risk with doing so is that you wouldn't get enough "belgian" characer, but if you smell your airlock I bet what you find will indicate that risk is small!

07/02/07 12:00 PM  
Re: dubbel recipe input
I have used both Wyeast and White Labs Chimay yeast strains with none of the acetate esters in the final product, but then it probably has a lot to do with my brewing procedures. I make large yeast starters and use pure oxygen in the fermenter just before pitching, I ferment at 74F and let the beer ramp up into the low 80s, after two weeks in the fermenter the beer gets kegged and cold conditioned for 6 to 8 weeks at 36F. After that it gets kegged and bottled. I have shocked many brewers who didn't like this yeast strain who loved my beers and couldn't believe that it was the Chimay strain.

I've said this before and I'll say it again - most of the Belgian yeast strains come to life when warm fermented but will require some long term cold conditioning for proper maturation.

07/02/07 12:43 PM  
Re: dubbel recipe input
Sounds like Cisco has the kind of experience with 1214 that makes my ramblings moot. Cisco, how large are your large starters (and how are they made)?
07/02/07 01:03 PM  
Re: dubbel recipe input
My starters are rather large and I feed them every other day and decant at least once during a week long growth on a stir plate with some pure oxygen added also several times. After a fermentation I harvest the yeast from my SS conicals and wait to use it again with just a little feeding a few days before brewing.
Caped Brewsader
07/02/07 02:17 PM  
Re: dubbel recipe input
Well, I hope I pitched enough. I did have a decent size starter for such a small amount of wort (split batch). It was happily bubbling within a couple hours so at least it had a good start. The ferment temp right now is good, but I won't be able to cold condition this beer. At best I'll be able to keep it around 55F in the cellar. I will be aging it sufficiently though since it is intended for November 1st. I wanted to brew it now while the weather here was still cool. I am definitely thinking of blending the two halfs of the batch (3787 and 1214) and then again splitting it and aging half on oak chips just for shi*s and giggles.

Mike T, I added the sugar with 10 min to go on the boil.

I just did the math on my mash in my new setup. Something must have been wrong. Normally I too am in the high 70's on my efficiency. Apparently this time I was at 93%. I do not believe this to be true especially since my OG (after the sugar addition) was lower than expected. Damn, I was brewing with consistency but now that I changed out my mash tun all kinds of odd things are happening. Guess that means I need to brew more to get used to the changes!

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