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I just really like the work levifunk is doing!

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MarkO
06/28/07 02:43 PM  
Vinnie Cilurzo's .ppt presentation
A resounding thank you to whomever posted the .ppt. I have only had a chance to glance at it, but have already seen some intriguing things. I am glad to see the information about kloeckera apiculata, for example, because I think that is a species that is doing a good portion of the work in my ambient beers.
SteveG
06/28/07 02:57 PM  
Re: Vinnie Cilurzo's .ppt presentation
You're welcome MarkO, upon hearing the talk I realized the same thing about kloeckera apiculata. He said it comes off very strongly of grapefruit. 2 Januarys ago I did an ambient batch and that's exactly what happened, it was more grapefruit-like (maybe a bit peel-like) than a heavy Cascade beer. Actually it was so grapefruity that I decided it was totally off the mark for what I was trying to do and dumped it. In retrospect though I think I poured off a gallon first, but I could not see needing more than that. I need to hunt for that, see what happened to it. Maybe blend it in with my current ambient batch.
SebastianP
06/28/07 04:18 PM  
Re: Grapefruit
Some of my favorite Lambic experiences in Beersel have to do with sitting outside on the patio while sipping a traditional lambic that had a great grapefruit flavor to it.

I had no idea that this could have been attributed to kloeckera apiculata. How interesting & where do I get some commercially (tucson sux for ambient ferments as it is never cool enough).

Cisco
06/28/07 04:25 PM  
Re: Vinnie Cilurzo's .ppt presentation
Gee, I can't wait for my one and a half year old Roeselare to get "sick" and then months later get "well"!!!
MarkO
06/28/07 07:33 PM  
Re: Vinnie Cilurzo's .ppt presentation
It seems that the "sickness"/ropiness attributed to pediococcus can happen fairly quickly -- I have a couple of pLambic barrels, brewed in March, now covered with those lovely oily strands. From the few times I have made this stuff, I would say that it seems to happen once the weather stays consistently above 70 deg.F. It may look a little nasty, but smells pretty good.

MarkO
06/28/07 07:39 PM  
Re: Vinnie Cilurzo's .ppt presentation
As for where to get Kloeckera apiculata, I am not entirely sure, sebastian. You could try the American Type Culture Collection (atcc.org). They have multiple strains, as well as different species of kloeckera listed on their website. I have never gotten anything from them, so don't know how non-microbiologist-friendly they or their methods are.
MarkO
06/28/07 07:45 PM  
Re: Vinnie Cilurzo's .ppt presentation
OOOh, forget about ATCC, I just checked, and it's $210.00 for a sample. And apologies for the multiple posts.
Darel Matthews
06/28/07 08:26 PM  
Re: Vinnie Cilurzo's .ppt presentation
Did a search, where can we find the ppt?
MarkO
06/28/07 08:50 PM  
Re: Vinnie Cilurzo's .ppt presentation
It's on the babblebelt.com home/index page, at the top where the swap info usually is, under the link "Russian River Presentation on Sour Beer."
SteveG
06/28/07 10:40 PM  
Re: Vinnie Cilurzo's .ppt presentation
Darel, actually the link to the ppt is on the HomebbbrewBoard page (the babblebelt.com home/index page would be or the main board).
Loren
06/29/07 07:07 AM  
Re: Vinnie Cilurzo's .ppt presentation
Question for anyone who uses Pedio. Is it worth it? I know Vinnie's beers take a while to be ready once bottled because of the "sickness" from Pedio, not to mention any residual daicetyl. Is it worth the effort to use Pedio in addition to Lacto and various/single strains of Brett? Just curious...as I've had sour beer examples with just Brett strains that were :almost: as complex as some of the sour -tion offerings.

Sidenote: I had a Beatification 001 last night and it seemed VERY mellow, acid wise, than when it was fresh. Are the bugs dying off from the high pH levels or...?

Baums
06/29/07 10:44 AM  
Re: Vinnie Cilurzo's .ppt presentation
MarkO: was this the Wyeast pedio you used?

Loren: I think the main reason for using pedio is that it's hard to get more than a certain amount of sourness from lactobacillus. It probably can be done somehow with lacto (delay ethanol fermentation till there's lots of acidity, for instance), but even in Rodenbach only about the first half of the acidity is generated by lacto--then they die off and the hardier pedio creates the higher levels of sourness.

Thinking outside the box: maybe there's a particular fruit that's known to be a favorite Kloeckera hangout.

MarkO
06/29/07 11:35 AM  
Re: Vinnie Cilurzo's .ppt presentation
Baums: The pedio in question is resident in an oak barrel which I dosed with Cantillon dregs a couple of years, and batches, ago. It is possible that it has become resident in the "brewery" as well (detached garage), because I have several batches in glass that show similar strands. Of course, I have no way of knowing precisely what is going on with these strands, since the majority of these beers have been ambiently fermented, and remain open (except for some wads of paper to keep the fruit flies out).

Loren: where are you buying Beatification? I could really use one, and it's a good 12-hour drive one way to Santa Rosa for me.

On oxidative yeasts on fruit: whether it's kloeckera or candida I have no clue, but there are loads of oxidative yeasts on the plums in my yard -- I would happily mail one to Tucson!

Loren
06/29/07 12:09 PM  
Re: Vinnie Cilurzo's .ppt presentation
MarkO, I bought my stash from a friend who lives in NY when they could ship. Now I'll just ask some local friends up near RR to help with my bottle fix from now on.
MarkO
06/29/07 12:54 PM  
Re: Vinnie Cilurzo's .ppt presentation
And I will drive, while hoping that RR can work with some Oregon distributors.
BPotts
06/29/07 01:13 PM  
Re: Vinnie Cilurzo's .ppt presentation
I brewed my first sour beer 9 months ago using the Wyeast blend, which contains brett., lacto, and pedio.....After two months in the primary (which was suggested by a Wyeast lab tech) I racked to a carboy and bottled the little left over (about 4 bottles). I tasted these bottles over the course of about 2 or 3 months. When I opened the first bottle the aroma was nice and strong like a Roden. Grand Cru....I was dissapointed because the taste did not reflect the same potential. It had a significant horsey/urine-like taste, with some good acidity already accumulated. By the time I tried the last bottle, roughly 2 months later, the taste ratio had flipped. The aroma was more strong and pungent, and the flavor had a really nice sour/vinegar like taste, with more subtle horsey flavor notes. To say the least I was very happy with where this beer was heading. Meanwhile I still have my other 5 gallons fermenting in the carboy with a nice pellicle formed. I plan to bottle in October after a full year of fermentation, although the Wy Lab Tech said one can let them sit for years in the secondary. In short, if sharp acidity is what you're looking for, like a Rodenbach GC or many of the Cantillon brews, than I think pedioccocus is the way to go.

I just d/led the .ppt presentation and haven't read it yet but I attended a brett. seminar hosted by White Labs recently and learned some good stuff. There I learned they love more complex sugars and can withstand high alcohol levels so I recently brew an experimental extremely high gravity ale with malt, honey, sugar, and fruit juice (at around 1.13+ OG!) and pitched the WhiteLabs lambic blend with their Super High Gravity Yeast....after a quick and rigerous primary ferm. I racked to a secondary and added dregs of a Cantillon Cuvee Des Champions Gueze....I have know idea how this will turn out but I figure I'll let it sit for a year or two and then try......

Mark - did using the cantillon dregs work out well for you? I love their beers and figured it would interesting to add the dregs to my experimental beer, I can't wait to see how it turns out..

SteveG
06/29/07 02:20 PM  
Re: Vinnie Cilurzo's .ppt presentation
Just a note, please keep discussion of where to find RR (or any other) beers to the other board.
MarkO
06/29/07 03:48 PM  
Re: Vinnie Cilurzo's .ppt presentation
Sorry for the off-topic slide, SteveG.

And BPotts: Yes, I have had very good results using Cantillon dregs. I have tried a couple of times, although never in an ultra-high-gravity batch like you describe above.

Tremens
07/06/07 03:24 PM  
Re: Vinnie Cilurzo's .ppt presentation
Thanks for posting this ppt! I was unable to attend the NHC this year - it sounds like it was a good time. On reading the presentation, I saw a note not to forget the 10% blending rule. Can anyone who was at the lecture please clue me in to what Vinnie means by this?

Thanks!

Pat

Mike T
07/15/07 07:38 PM  
Re: Vinnie Cilurzo's .ppt presentation
To go along with the powerpoint, the brewing network has a recording of Vinnie's presentation. What an interesting speach, plenty of info on his beers and plenty of general barrel/bug info. I particularly enjoyed hearing the BBB Brett swap get a mention.

www.thebrewingnetwork.com/archive/dwnldarchive07-07-07.mp3

 
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