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Author Replies
PMR
07/09/07 11:21 AM  
Homebrew Comp. for Belgian-style beers
Hi all--

This competition seems to be right up your alley, as it's limited to Belgian-style and Specialty categories. Hope you enter!

Cheers,

Patrick

Start Up Brewery Hosts Homebrew Competition to Determine First Batch

Placentia, CA – July 9, 2007 – The Bruery, a new craft brewery in Orange County, California, is holding a homebrew competition which will determine the first batch brewed at the brewery. Patrick Rue, Owner and Brewer says, “We are excited to bring the spirit and innovation of homebrewing into our new brewery from its inception. We're still avid homebrewers ourselves and we strongly believe homebrewing is a significant part of what keeps craft beer interesting.”

The winning beer will be produced as the brewery’s first batch, named “Batch No. 01”. The winner will have the opportunity to assist in brewing the batch on their 17 bbl system, if the winner so chooses. The first, second and third place winners will also receive various prizes, which are still to be determined. The winner's name will be prominently mentioned on the bottle label. In addition, the batch will be served at The Bruery's grand opening celebration, which will take place in the Fall.

For more information, please visit www.thebruery.com

Based in Orange County, California, The Bruery is a small, traditional craft brewery which is slated to open in the Fall of 2007. The Bruery specializes in bottle conditioned Belgian-style and unconventional specialty beers.

SteveG
07/09/07 12:22 PM  
Re: Homebrew Comp. for Belgian-style beers
I could throw something in, though this seems like a somewhat dangerous project. The beer I'd enter is 100% spontaneous, and there are lots of people here who have made beer with all brettanomyces. Would you still produce the batch if a bug-rich beer won? Do bacteria-intensive brews stand the same chance as a dubble or wit?
PMR
07/09/07 12:57 PM  
Re: Homebrew Comp. for Belgian-style beers
Good point Steve. Wild beers would have a chance at winning, especially if they're placed in the right category (we'll be using BJCP judges for the most part).

I wouldn't hesitate to use brett / other bugs as a finishing / bottle conditioning yeast. We won't have time to brew a 100% brett beer, and I don't want to experiment with the microflora around the brewery just yet (not sure how wonderful bugs and wild yeast are off of a major highway). Production time should be 4-6 weeks. I'll list that on the entry form, thanks for the help!

BPotts
07/09/07 01:51 PM  
Re: Homebrew Comp. for Belgian-style beers
I should try my belgian wildflower honey wheat...it took first place for Belgian and French ale at this years NHC 1st round in the northeast....Thanks for the heads up on this contest!
BPotts
07/16/07 06:42 PM  
Read the fine print....
Wow this seemed good and all....your own beer professionally recreated, your name on the bottle, not even an entry fee, but...

"The Bruery intends to produce this batch as a one time offering, although we reserve the right to brew this recipe as a year-round or a seasonal offering without further compensation to the winning brewer."

what the hell? that's pretty crappy....15 minutes of fame and then they get to capitalize on your talent....enter this competition if you want to also enter your homebrewing soul for the taking.....

PMR
07/17/07 04:32 PM  
Re: Homebrew Comp. for Belgian-style beers
Sorry to have rubbed you the wrong way, BPotts. I can asure you it is not my intent to capitalize on homebrewer's talent, and it is my intention that this beer will only be brewed once.

I put in this language in the event the beer does become wildly popular, I'd want to brew it again, with or without the winning homebrewers permission (obviously I'd like the homebrewer to be on board). There are many aspects to brewing and marketing a beer, and I don't want to get into legal trouble if I did brew it again. The homebrewer would still get credit for the recipe, but they shouldn't expect a cut of the profits (if there are any!).

I've had a winning recipe of mine brewed at another brewery before as an award, and I'd be honored if they brewed it again, or made it a regular offering. Most homebrewers I know feel the same way.

PMR
07/17/07 04:36 PM  
Re: Homebrew Comp. for Belgian-style beers
PS-- I hope you still enter your Belgian Wildflower Honey Wheat, it sounds fantastic. I assure you whoever wins won't be taken advantage of.

Cheers,

Patrick

BPotts
07/17/07 11:34 PM  
Re: Homebrew Comp. for Belgian-style beers
I see I see......I appreciate the reassurance.....it's just that if I were lucky enough one day to open a brewery of my own than that recipe wouldn't necessarily be my own anymore, which, for a beer a good enough, is something near and dear to my heart.. that beer would then be someone elses as well, who could possibly get popular and make a lot of money off of, and I think that's definitly a downside....I guess a way around that is creating a new recipe for the competition....
Ross Lunato
07/18/07 11:50 AM  
Re: Homebrew Comp. for Belgian-style beers
BPotts;

<climbs up on soap box>

Many people are sensitive about giving out recipes for prize winning brews. My friends' Grandma said she would take the recipe for her blue ribbon winning apple sauce to her grave "because nobody deserved it". Other people such as Vinnie Cilurzo at Russian River or medal winning homebrewers like Jamil Zainasheff and Joe Formanek hand out recipes like the Chicago police hand out parking tickets, without concern for compensation or kudos.

Obviously, you are concerned about the compensation aspects of the situation not who has privy to your recipe right? In most competitions, the recipes are required which means other people are going to see your recipe. Who will stop them from plagiarizing your recipe? How would you know it happened or how would you prove it?

Regarding making a lot of money off of a recipe, sorry, no offense to pro brewers, but brewers just aren't rich people financially speaking. Advice has been given by many pro brewers that if you want to make alot of money, don't become a brewer.

Also, just thought I would mention it, but, your Belgian Wildflower Wheat sounds alot like the Wildflower Wheat recipe written by Mike Gerhart of Dogfish Head. You can find the details on page 135 of Extreme Brewing, written by Sam Calagione. Of course your recipe is fermented with a Belgian yeast so that would make your beer totally different right?

<climbs off of soap box>

Sincerely,

Ross

Colin
07/18/07 12:35 PM  
Re: Homebrew Comp. for Belgian-style beers
I think what Patrick is doing is pretty cool. There are a few established breweries up here in Seattle that are really trying to get the homebrewers involved, and I think it pretty awesome that he is incorporating homebrewers from the very start of his venture.

My brewing partner and I recently had our Belgian Golden Strong picked as a Pro-Am beer for the GABF this year, and the experience has been completely incredible so far. The brewery that picked us duplicated every little detail of how to re-create this beer. We had an awesome brew day,made new connections in the industry, are getting passes to the GABF, and are going to be able to have our friends come by for a hell of a good time at the brewery when it is released.That's pretty rad in my book.

I'm in the beginning stages of opening up a small brewery, and yes it did cross my mind about giving up the recipe...but no matter what, no matter what paperwork you have to sign to release it, it's still your recipe.Improve on it. Make it better than before. Throw a twist in. I agree with Ross about Vinnie and Jamil. Nice guys definitely finish first. Chances are in the event that the beer was popular and they did brew it again, I don't think Patrick is going to be able to close up shop and retire in Tahiti off of the profits.

Patrick, it sounds like a lot of fun, and I'll definitely be looking up your place next time I'm down in Orange County for business.

SteveG
07/18/07 01:30 PM  
Re: Homebrew Comp. for Belgian-style beers
BPotts, Ross (those were great points), it is also well worth mentioning that there is far more to a beer than the recipe. I've sung this song for years, the specifics of your process lends an enormous amount to your final product. If anything this is more true with Belgian styles. If they end up really liking your recipe it will very likely be in the context of what they did with it.
BPotts
07/18/07 06:49 PM  
Re: Homebrew Comp. for Belgian-style beers
Russ-

That seemed more like a bar stool or one of those bikes with the big wheel in thefront....

First of all, I'm not concerned about making any money myself, I could care less about that...I'm concerned that somebody else would possibly be making a name off of something they didn't create.

second of all the majority of competitions I have entered don't require the ingredients, and again, that's not the point.....If a fellow homebrewer likes the beer and wants to make it, that's fine with me, but, as painter as well as a brewer, I would never paint something for someone who wanted to become a professional painter and make their own name off of it it, whether it's fame, fortune, or a local cult following. Vinnie and those guys have arleady made great strides in the brewing industry and they're extremely talented, but they did that themselves FIRST, before giving away all their recipes...and even still all of those guys have the secrets of their own personal practice, as Steve stated...and I can bet if some other West Coast brewery put out a dark sour complex beer called Cuvee De "your name here" made exactly in the style of Tom Arthur's beer, he would not be happy. As a brewer I understand beer is for people to enjoy, and that brewing is a very open industry/hobby, but as an "artiste" I wouldn't want to sell my art under someone's elses name, or give it away for that matter.

As far as brewers getting rich? Not everyone can be Sam Calagione.....

P.S...I could see how you might think that recipe "sounds" the same as the one in Extreme Brewing, but rest assured it's quite different, and was created before the book was released, if you really want to assume....let's not get caught up on titles...

<sips tasty homebrew>

-Ben

Ross Lunato
07/18/07 08:06 PM  
Re: Homebrew Comp. for Belgian-style beers
First, the name is Ross but you can call me Russ if it makes you feel better.

Second, if you're concerned about someone making a name off of one of your recipes then I'd suggest you never enter contests that require you submit the recipe. That would be ALL AHA sanctioned contests.

Third, Vinnie and "those guys" I guess you mean Jamil Z and Joe F, (who are not pro brewers by the way), have always been extremely generous with their info about beer making. Also, there was a beer made of the same name, one made by Vinnie and the other by Adam Avery; I believe the name was Damnation. Anyway, same name, two totally different brews. They each collaborated together instead of going to court. The resulting beer was Collaboration, not litigation. So, there is an example of two professionals working together in the spirit of making great beer in America instead of acting like jerks. Guess they relaxed and had a homebrew.

Fourth, as a tradesman and musician I can tell you that when you start calling yourself an "artiste", it's a sure sign you're taking yourself too seriously. Relax Benny, have a home brew.

Fifth, if you say that your beer was created and named before Sam came out with the book then that's fine with me. But I will bet you dollars to donuts that every person that just read your response rolled their eyes. However, isn't Sam now gaining fame and fortune off of a recipe name that you came up with first? Following your logic, why are you not ticked off by that? Are you saying it's okay not to get caught up on titles but it's okay to get tied up in your own underware on the recipe? You just said that if someone came out with a beer named Cuvee de so-and-so in a similar style that Tomme would not be happy. Welllllll? Isn't your beer a wheat beer? Isn't the beer in the book and your beer named Wildflower Wheat? C'mon, don't piss on me and tell me it's raining.

Oh crap, I think I'll relax and have a homebrew.

Just a final note, one thing I don't like doing is debating over silly things like this. Just enter your beer and trust the gentlemen that Patrick is that you won't be taken advantage of.

<jumps on big wheel and rides away>

SteveG
07/18/07 09:50 PM  
Re: Homebrew Comp. for Belgian-style beers
>>I'm concerned that somebody else would possibly be making a name off of something they didn't create.<<

I guess the comment about a beer being far more than the recipe didn't take. Do you believe that if you gave a recipe to a pro brewer their end product would be a dead-ringer for yours? Dude, fermentor shape will have a big impact on how a beer tastes. So all else equal their tanks will alone will make the beer different from yours. I think if they adapt the beer for full scale professional production then you would not be the creator so much as the inspiration. They would probably have to adjust the recipe anyway to make it work in a large scale context.

SteveG
07/19/07 06:42 AM  
Re: Homebrew Comp. for Belgian-style beers
Sorry BPotts the last post had to go. The Belgian brewer you mentioned has big issues with English. If he read your post (he does peruse here) and saw his name he could easily have not understood the context in which his name was used and seen it as being called a "Belgian jerk". He's important to me and the board, I can't risk that.
BPotts
07/19/07 08:54 AM  
Re: Homebrew Comp. for Belgian-style beers
Sorry Steve didn't mean to step on any toes - I thought that had proven my point pretty well. I hear Dany is a great guy and that's why I put it in there....anyway, here's my post, minus the jerk part.....

Sorry rOss, mispelled your name before...don't take it personally....

Taking myself too seriously? If you couldn't tell, I called myself an "Artiste" with just a hint of sarcasm... I don't think I'm the one taking things too seriously here....

Do your ideas about beer roll over to your music? Do you just cover the Rolling Stones and the Greatful Dead? No, you most likely take pride in writing your own music and lyrics.....

and by the way, doesn't Jamil have a book coming out soon? I guess he must be giving that book away for free to all those who want to make his beers.....

No one's debating the name of beer....The fact that Sam released Extreme Brewing with a recipe for a beer of a similar name is really nothing like Sam taking said beer from a contest and then putting the Dogfish Head name on it with no further connection to the homebrewer. I wasn't already known for my wheat beer, nor was I making any money off of it, nor did Sam actually get that recipe FROM me in a contest. If I was, and if he did, I would be pissed...And someone ripping off a recipe from a contest entry for personal use really isn't relevant for the same reason....if that person took the recipe, started (or had) a brewery, and made that a hit beer of theirs, then maybe I would be pissed, but not at someone who wants to make it for themselves in their kitchen..... The Colloboration not Litigation beer deals with the issue of marketing and advertising over a name, not a recipe, so I don't really see how that relates to this conversation.

I don't suppose you'd debate with Danny Prignon over whether or not he should share his secretive recipes with the world, would you? That sense of mystery is one of the things that makes Fantome beers so wonderful, and stand out from the average everyday beers that a majority of breweries are making today. When I make beer I like to follow this path as well, and I think that's the thing that makes one beer stand out over another. If you can't understand that, then, well, this is a pretty silly debate afterall.....

SteveG
07/19/07 10:01 AM  
Re: Homebrew Comp. for Belgian-style beers
Thanks for rephrasing that. I share emails with Dany a few times a year, his English beats the heck out of my French, but there is definately a communication gap!

Dude, to be fair Jamil can't give his book away, they cost money to print. But from what I know of Jamil he would if he could. Considering the heights he's reached I'm really impressed with how totally generous he is with info. I think it is very accurate to say he has absolutely no secrets with the brewing community.

About the folks in Belgium, secrecy seems to be a thing there. This has been discussed over across the street, in Belgium brewers - even monastic ones - clearly misdirect people inquiring about recipes. I've heard people debate conflicting Rochefort recipes, both with heals dug in because they both got their info directly from the brewer! This is of course in contrast to how things happen in the states. Brewers who could be seen as competing (Tomme, Vinnie, PeterB for example) all work together, brew together, collaborate. In reality I can't believe anyone could replicate the Fantome taste just with a recipe, there is definately a house thingy going on there. I'm pretty sure the only real way to capture what he does it to brew in his facility. But still, like the rest of his countrymen he chooses to keep his details secret. I think there's no point, but that's how Belgians are. To further emphasize this point, I would be happy to send you a bottle of my ambient ale, and the full recipe. Good luck making the same thing! Of course this is an extreme example, certainly this new brewery will be working under more controlled conditions than I do when I spontaneously ferment. But the point is similar, the recipe is merely the starting point. Where the resulting beer goes depends on the brewer.

Bottom line is I feel "The Bruery intends to produce this batch as a one time offering, although we reserve the right to brew this recipe as a year-round or a seasonal offering without further compensation to the winning brewer." is not an unreasonable disclaimer for the above-stated reasons.

BPotts
07/19/07 10:23 AM  
Re: Homebrew Comp. for Belgian-style beers
I know Jamil can't give the book away, but to say he simply put it out to GIVE people his recipes I think is being a bit naive....Why not just post them online, at the AHA site or set up his own? There are plenty of places he could post them for free for anyone who wanted to know. I don't think he's doing it to make all the money he can get, but if Ross is trying to make the point that Jamil is not trying to reek the benefits of being a friendly homebrewer, I think that's silly. It's clearly a business venture, a small one nonetheless.

I don't really care about that, it's not really even pertinent to my point, I'm just responding to Ross....

Steve, I understand what you're saying about the different set up, ingredients, volumes, etc. etc...I know all the variables that go into making beer. It's hard enough making the same brew twice oneself let alone giving it to someone else to recreate. It would be impossible to recreate such beers as those of Dany P. I admire the implent of secretive time honored family technics, but that's just my taste and opinion. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree....but in the context of the contest I do understand what you're saying.

BPotts
07/19/07 10:25 AM  
Re: Homebrew Comp. for Belgian-style beers
implent=implementation
PMR
07/19/07 10:55 AM  
Re: Homebrew Comp. for Belgian-style beers
Wow, quite a conversation. I respect your point of view, Ben, and I can't say I didn't feel a bit the same way with the Sam Adams Longshot Competition.

Just to let you guys know, I'm not doing this competition in order to find a winning recipe from a homebrewer and build my brewery on it. There are many recipes I have come up with over the years and I can't wait to brew my own beers. Starting up a brewery without brewing from what I've come up with wouldn't be very rewarding to me.

The main purpose of this competition is for fun. It's something I wanted to do to show support for the homebrewing community, get people involved with The Bruery, and develop recognition of the brewery. I won't be open for business for a few more months, but there's a number of people who now know what I'm up to, and who hopefully are looking forward to trying my beers and the winning homebrewer's beer.

I'm a one-man show, not a major corporation, and I don't have investors to make decisions for me. I hope you'll trust me in that I'm not here to exploit homebrewers. "Batch No. 01" will be an important part of the story of The Bruery, and I hope you'll give it a shot. Hell, maybe we'll just post the winning recipe on the website?

Cheers,

Patrick

Ross Lunato
07/19/07 11:04 AM  
Re: Homebrew Comp. for Belgian-style beers
Steve;

To expand on your point, Jamil said that while he hands out his recipes freely, you still wouldn't have his beer. The brewer and his methods play a HUGE role in the final outcome of a beer. In addition, the recipes that are in his new book are recipes that he has discussed on the podcasts or has published on the net with maybe some tweeks added in the book version. And you're right, from my personal experience with him, he is the most generous person about brewing ideas and information I have ever met. However, I should mention that you and Cisco are threatening to take the title of "Most Generous Brewer Ross Has Ever Met" away from him!!!! LOL!!!

Ben, make no mistake, I fully understand your point. I wouldn't want anyone using an idea of mine and making money or fame off of it either without my consent (in fact, it's happened to me three times at work without my permission). Of course, if you enter the contest, I realize that you are consenting to allow the brewer to use your recipe in the future without compensation to you.

The contest that is being discussed is very, very cool in my opinion and I would be honored to have my beer brewed by a pro brewer. I don't consider it entering my homebrewing soul for the taking as you put it. I also don't mind contributing an idea to the brewing world if we all can drink better beer. In fact, and I don't want to sound like I'm boasting but would like to make a point. I actually have discussed several ideas with two separate pro brewers who have not given me public kudos but I was happy to contribute nevertheless. One brewer uses information I've collected for him to train his staff with. I'm honored that he respects my work enough to use it at his brewery. That's payment enough for me, plus, I've made a new, really cool friend which is more important to me than anything.

As I said, just enter your beer and if it wins, great! I don't think you will be taken advantage of. Look at it as contributing some good beer Karma!

SteveG
07/19/07 11:07 AM  
Re: Homebrew Comp. for Belgian-style beers
Actually Ben I'd be very surprised if Jamils stuff was not online. I'm pretty sure he has a website, I think I remember someone telling me what it was. For the life of me I can't think what that is. Anyone know this off hand? I've never been there so I can't speak to the content, but I'd bet a six-pack if he has a www presence that he does give away his recipes.

Good luck Pat, I wish I had something other than a brewery destroying beer to offer!

Ross Lunato
07/19/07 11:11 AM  
Re: Homebrew Comp. for Belgian-style beers
Here it is free of charge!!!!

beerdujour.com/JamilsRecipes.htm

Al B
07/19/07 11:15 AM  
Re: Homebrew Comp. for Belgian-style beers
Here on the East coast, I recall Heavyweight Brewing collaborating with Homebrew clubs. Love the idea. Wish I had something descent to send.

BPotts
07/19/07 11:29 AM  
Re: Homebrew Comp. for Belgian-style beers
Patrick,

It's good to know we're at least discussing this with the actual brewer. I'm glad to hear that you've opened up your own little place, that's awesome. It's something I hope to do one day. I didn't mean to open up such fierce debate on the idea of giving up a recipe for professional use for your contest...I didn't think you were holding this contest to find a flag ship beer and by no means tried to say you didn't have any recipes of your own to use....I simply had questions about the principles...

I could see how entering the Longshot would be a real reason to sweat being taken advantage of. The fact that we can actually discuss this with you openly is a cool thing, and it's good to hear those words from the person executing the competition.

SteveG
07/19/07 11:30 AM  
Re: Homebrew Comp. for Belgian-style beers
Thanks Ross, that's probably a good URL for the archives! Hope that baby is all you were wishing for.

I think Heavyweight is a great example, Tom definatly encorporated "intellectual properties" from the ameture world - including label art. I'd have to guess here, but I bet compensation for those who lended part in Toms efforts was more in the form of bragging rights than anything else. Nobody who knows Tom could conclude he was doing anything other than sharing the fun. I have to say, IMO bragging rights is some pretty sweet payback!

BPotts
07/19/07 11:33 AM  
Re: Homebrew Comp. for Belgian-style beers
PS.....I don't doubt Jamil is a great guy either, but if his stuff is already posted everywhere, why come out with a book? Because he's trying to make a living...that's all I'm trying to say....
BPotts
07/19/07 11:37 AM  
Re: Homebrew Comp. for Belgian-style beers
Bragging rights is correct...and if the brewery was still open and they re released those beers the club names would still be included.....I took it from the entry form this would not be case for this contest, though I could be wrong...Patrick?
PMR
07/19/07 12:06 PM  
Re: Homebrew Comp. for Belgian-style beers
Ben-- I'd still include the story about how the beer came to be brewed at The Bruery, as I think it will be a major selling point of the beer. Plus, I'd want the brewer to continue to get credit and recognition for the recipe. I didn't include anything on the entry form that would bind me to do so, though.

Jamil is a great guy, by the way. He's coming out with a book because John Palmer asked him to contribute a few recipes, and those few recipes grew to many recipes and became an important part of the book. Plus, he'll have a different and perhaps larger audience from his book than he would from the podcast or posting on forums. The guy makes a lot of money working for Adobe, so I don't think it's for the cash. I'd be surprised if he makes more than $5,000 on the book.

SteveG
07/19/07 12:28 PM  
Re: Homebrew Comp. for Belgian-style beers
Ben, in tiny industries like this one publishing a book is no way to make money. Example, I made a free site for Tim Webb for his Guide to Benelux cause the thing was so unprofitable. He was mainly selling it on Amazon and making literally pennies per copy sold. He wasn't covering the cost of publishing. I made him a site for free cause he didn't believe the cost of site development could be covered. He's doing better now, I set him up with a PayPal solution and its been working for him. But I assure you, the reasons for publishing his guide have nothing to do with making a living. I know it sounds niave, but if he didn't do it out of love there would be no reason to do it at all.
BPotts
07/19/07 01:15 PM  
Re: Homebrew Comp. for Belgian-style beers
That's fine. A job with Adobe? I'm sure he's doing well anyway...doing the book for the love? great, that's awesome too...I'm not sure why everybody's dwelling on Jamil, that was a tangent that Ross brought up, I was never talking about that in the first place. It really is irrelevant to what I was saying. If Ross thinks it's great for him to be open and sharing about everything he does, fine, but don't go around calling the people who like to keep a bit of mystery about their beer "jerks". I think that's a pretty ignorant comment to make.
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