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SebastianP
07/28/07 01:39 AM  
Stability of Whitelabs Clausenii as Primary fermen
Well it has been one year since bottling and I have three bottles left of the brew that I sent to SteveG and that won runner up best of show in the Franco-Belgian Challenge Cup. I figured tonight would be a good night for one.

Remarkably the beer still has the same level of carbonation that it did after one month of bottling condition. I have stored it between 68F and 80F the whole time. The flavor has actually remained fairly stable since about the 3 month in the bottle time as well. Really though, it is the fact that the Brett has not continued to eat the residual sugars that has me intrigued. The Brett appears to be behaving like traditional yeast when used as a primary fermentation agent (or is that too big of a theory).

I was certainly expecting these to get over carbonated as time moved on, and certainly expected bottle bombs if I had dreamed of letting any bottles go this long. None of that has happened, and I am pretty sure that this beer never even got to the 4 volumes of CO2 that was expected from the amount of priming sugar added.

Anybody else have experience or thoughts on my unexpectedly stable bottles?

SebastianP
07/28/07 01:40 AM  
Re: Stability of Whitelabs Clausenii as Primary fe
The title should read:

Stability of Whitelabs Clausenii as Primary Fermenter

SebastianP
07/28/07 01:44 AM  
Re: Stability of Whitelabs Clausenii as Primary fe
Some other thoughts:

I created a stir plate starter.

I oxygenated this beer just as I would any other beer, two 45 second blasts of pure O2 just after adding the yeast.

Primary fermentation at 90F for 1 week then 78F for the 8 week secondary.

Darel Matthews
07/28/07 08:22 PM  
Re: Stability of Whitelabs Clausenii as Primary fe
Wild Brews states exactly what you've noticed - that brett behaves like sacch when used as a primary fermenting agent. No superattenuation.

Were the high ferment temps intentional or just ambient? Do all brett strains like it hot? Is there a good thread on this?

Darel

SebastianP
07/28/07 10:05 PM  
Re: Stability of Whitelabs Clausenii as Primary fe
Darel Matthews wrote<<Were the high ferment temps intentional or just ambient? Do all brett strains like it hot? Is there a good thread on this?>>

Yes these were intentionally temperature controlled. This beer was a four way split between various Saison yeast strains (1.044 O.G.), and I was trying to find out which ones would perform best at the hot temperatures.

Cisco
07/29/07 01:52 PM  
Re: Stability of Whitelabs Clausenii as Primary fe
I too have noticed no further attenuation in my Brett Cl saison. Bizarre!
Baums
07/30/07 09:37 AM  
Re: Stability of Whitelabs Clausenii as Primary fe
It really is very mysterious. I think that WY b. lambicus won't superattenuate in these circumstances either. Al, I know you've played with that strain too--what have you seen?

There are lots of good reasons to believe brett will superattenuate. And lots of good reasons to believe it will not. I'd say experience shows that as a primary fermenter it will not... but I thought I heard Mo Betta Bretta eventually had overcarbonation problems?

SebastianP
07/30/07 12:18 PM  
Re: Stability of Whitelabs Clausenii as Primary fe
Baums wrote

<<but I thought I heard Mo Betta Bretta eventually had overcarbonation problems?>>

This might not be a good example, as the Mo Betta was not allowed to finish a regular primary fermentation cycle with the Brett. Tomme finished this beer off with, I believe, an American Ale yeast strain, which certainly could have contributed to the later over-carbonation.

Baums
07/30/07 01:30 PM  
Re: Stability of Whitelabs Clausenii as Primary fe
I thought the American Ale was only added for bottling, but I could be wrong. Are you saying this could have contributed to overcarbonation because the American Ale yeast might have metabolized stuff that the brett did not? (Which I guess is possible depending on the health of the initial brett ferment, or maybe the temp profile of that ferment?)
Sean White
07/30/07 01:50 PM  
Re: Stability of Whitelabs Clausenii as Primary fe
Do you think I should expect my brett beer not to superattenuate in the bottle if using Clausnii/Brux? Will the brux slowly superattenuate when used as a primary?
Baums
07/30/07 02:58 PM  
Re: Stability of Whitelabs Clausenii as Primary fe
Has anyone ever had a brett-only beer superattenuate?
ErikH
07/30/07 04:19 PM  
Re: Stability of Whitelabs Clausenii as Primary fe
Not sure how relevant this is, but my only experience with Brett in the primary was a pale ale-ish thing that went from 1.048 to 1.007. At 85% or so apparent, I don't know that you'd call that superattenuative.

Also, this was fermented with slurry repitched from a beer done with WY1762 in the primary and cultured-up Orval dregs in the secondary. So while there is definitely a significant (and evident) B. Brux. component, I wouldn't say that it was the sole agent of fermentation.

SebastianP
07/30/07 06:11 PM  
Re: Stability of Whitelabs Clausenii as Primary fe
Baums Wrote

<<I thought the American Ale was only added for bottling, but I could be wrong. Are you saying this could have contributed to overcarbonation because the American Ale yeast might have metabolized stuff that the brett did not? (Which I guess is possible depending on the health of the initial brett ferment, or maybe the temp profile of that ferment?)>>

From my memory of his talk at the 2004 NHC, he actually added the american ale yeast to finish off the Primary fermentation, not just for bottling. I am not trying to insunuate that the American ale yeast is what is doing the interaction, just pointing out that with this complex intereaction between the two differing yeast strains that this beer is not a paragon for single strain Brett fermentation.

BPotts
08/01/07 12:57 PM  
Re: Stability of Whitelabs Clausenii as Primary fe
I'm glad I checked this thread out.....I have two wild beers which I'm planning on bottling relatively soon.

The first is a saison I brewed I guess about two or three weeks ago using the WY Farmhouse Ale yeast and the dregs of a Fantome Hiver (both for primary). Last time I checked (six days ago) it was still happily fermenting in the primary. When I changed the blow tube to an air lock, much to my delight, I got a healthy waft of what smelled just like a funky fantome beer. How long can I expect this to ferment for? I used 6 lbs of 55/45 Wheat DME and a lb. of wildflower honey so it's not going to be a strong beer (sorry I've gotten lazy with taking hydrometer readings...) I'm wondering when might be a good time to bottle this beer, and when I do, what the recommended amount of priming sugar should be (if any) for 5 gallons. I'm hoping to do so in order to make a deadline for a local competition but i'm not sure this will happen. Maybe SteveG can help me with this, as I know he has experience with the fantome yeast. I'm not exactly sure specifically what bugs live in their either..

The other beer I plan on bottling in a few months (a full year after fermentation began) is a lambic sort of thing. For this I used the WY Lambic Blend which contains several Brett. Strains, lacto and pedio. When I transfered this beer to the secondary after two months in the primary I had some left over and bottled it using a small amount of priming sugar. After a few months that beer became quite carbonated, and very clear, but it did not explode or gush out of the bottle....it was more like a champagne, which was nice. I finished all of those bottles so I can't check now to see what the carb. level might be like now. So......when I do get around to bottling this...do I even need to add priming sugar? It sounds as though from what I'm reading it would be fine because the bretts were all used in the primary in conjuction with the ale yeast that is also in the blend (a belgian wheat and sherry yeast). Might it need more yeast because of the long aging? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 
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