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Author Replies
Mike T
08/06/07 01:53 PM  
Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect next
Barring unforeseen events, I値l be bottling half of my batch of Flanders Red next week (using the Roeselare blend). The other half is going to get some more age on top of a few pounds of blackberries. Anyone have an idea of how much I should use? I picked up 4 lbs, which is probably too much for 2.5 gallons, I知 thinking 2.5 lbs? Too much, not enough, or just right?

I値l also have the wooden peg that has been sitting in neck of the carboy for 11 months now. My plan is to use it to infect a batch of something else. My current plan is brew a light Belgian pale/single and let that sour up (inspired by Beatification, but not meant as a clone):

How does this sound:

For 5.5 gallons

7.5 lbs pils

3 lbs wheat malt

(.5 lbs CaraHell?)

OG~1.050

Saaz bittering to 20-25 IBUs

Ferment on the cool side with WYeast Ardennes

Then age for 1-2 years with the wood + bugs, depending on how it tastes. I知 looking for something lightly tart with an interesting bug character. Should I mash for dextrins or attenuation (I知 not looking for this to be really sour, just tart)?

BPotts
08/06/07 04:03 PM  
Re: Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect
I Just did a pale wheat beer with tettnang and saaz with Fantome bugs, similar OG. I used the WY Farmhouse Ale yeast.....tastes pretty good already after 2 1/2 weeks...Nice crisp sweet malty flavor backed by Fantome-esque funkiness...Almost like a berliner weisse but a little stronger and fuller bodied and more funky/sour and spiced.... I spiced with bitter orange peel, coriander and black peppercorn....I'm not trying to age this one for as long as you, I've read the Fantome yeasts can sour more than expected...but so far it seems to be going well. I think you'd like the outcome of your recipe. If you don't want it to be so sour I would not age for as long as you state there....maybe 6 months or so in the secondary to fully develop flavors...
Mike T
08/06/07 04:31 PM  
Re: Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect
I知 hoping to control sourness through my initial attenuation. I figure that if my gravity is already down to 1.010 when I pitch the bugs they just won稚 have as strong of a souring effect as they had in my Flanders Red (in actuality not that sour last time I tried some) which had a gravity of 1.024 when I pitched the pack of Roeselare.

I値l certainly give it a taste after 6 months to see how things are going, and if it seems to be getting too sour I値l bottle it.

Thanks for the input, I was debating reducing the amount of wheat. Did you use any crystal/cara in yours?

BPotts
08/06/07 04:43 PM  
Re: Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect
I see....yes, 1 lb. of Dingemans Cara-pils I believe
SteveG
08/06/07 04:54 PM  
Re: Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect
Mike, 2 lbs of fruit per gallon is not an overkill fruit level, I think you should use all your blackberries.

BPotts, I'm curious what your anticipated effect (or current effect if your intentions have been met) is for the peppercorn addition.

BPotts
08/06/07 05:12 PM  
Re: Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect
Steve-

Just an extra hint of spice in the flavor. I enjoy the effect it gives in certain Fantome brews, i.e. the Black and White. When I tasted the beer I honestly didn't notice any effect at all, I was hoping it would be a bit spicier...I used about a half once of it.

I remember reading somewhere you had experience with the Fantome yeast and it souring a bit more than expected..what was your experience? (let me know if you think I should start a new thread for this question)....I want to bottle this beer soon but am curious if that would be unwise.

SteveG
08/06/07 10:43 PM  
Re: Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect
After my brett barley wine fermented down reasonably (though it did not reach a long term bottoming out gravity) I added a second brett strain. At that point the beer was surprisingly un-funky, tasting basically like a British type BW with a bit of pineapply fruitiness. My thought was to add some Lambicus, but a miscommunication lead to me adding a Fantome brett instead. This is to say it was a brett strain isolated from a Fantome bottle that Al did not recognize as one of the more well-known bretts.

The beer did not go in a direction I wanted, though by no means was it dimished. The general "Fantome character" started to really take over, masking I thought the pretty clean BW it once was. I decided to heat the beer up and stop it. The character tamed, right now its a very delightful olde aleish kinda thing.

Mike T
08/07/07 08:42 AM  
Re: Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect
Thanks Steve, I値l go with all the blackberries I have plus all the beer I can safely fit with them in a 3 gallon carboy (probably closer to 2 gallons). Does anyone have an estimate for the headspace I should leave?

I should be alright leaving the beer on the berries for a couple months, right? I致e read the seeds in rasp/blackberries and lend some astringency with long aging.

SteveG
08/07/07 09:21 AM  
Re: Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect
That's worth some research Mike, sorry to say I don't have the answer but its hard to believe you would not have extracted what you will after a week or two. Berries are pretty delicate, I would imagine they would fold a lot faster than say cherries.
BPotts
08/07/07 09:39 AM  
Re: Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect
So, Steve, I take it you've never done a full/complete fermentation with Fantome dregs?...Know of anyone on these boards who might have experience with that?
Mike T
08/07/07 09:43 AM  
Re: Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect
Thus comes the problem with leaving your sour beers at your parents house 8 hours away I値l be visiting them for 9 days, so I could rack the beer onto the berries the day I get there, and bottle it the day I leave. However, I壇 be worried that there would still be some residual sugars from the blackberries in the beer when I bottle. Not sure when I値l be back up, but it will probably be Thanksgiving (~3 months).

I知 inclined to just wait, while the berries will probably be broken down and spent long before I get back, I don稚 think there will be any off flavors from the additional aging. Opinions?

Al B
08/07/07 11:21 AM  
Re: Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect
BPotts -

The Fantome dregs "usually" contain lactobacilli and several wild yeasts along with Saccharomyces yeast. One isolate of wild yeast is certainly a Brett/Dekkera species (something close to lambicus at first, but becoming more horsey over time - Bruxellensis?). The other wild yeast were more oxidative and not much, if any, impact on the funk flavor. That was taken from Black Ghost.

The Garamonde from Fantome did not seem to have much funk recovered from dregs. But the Saisons certaintly do.

Al B
08/07/07 11:29 AM  
Re: Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect
Mike T

How old is the red? You should definately leave as much head-space as much as possible - if the batch is still or freshly fermenting (Mount St. Helens)!

You may want to take a gravity reading after adding the fruit, aging for only a couple of months may leave excess sugar when bottling.

Mike T
08/07/07 11:48 AM  
Re: Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect
Its 2 days short of its first birthday. So by my estimate it should be about done with its 途egular fermentation, it better be because I値l be bottling half of it. I imagine that after a year of high acid conditions the yeast will be slower working than if this was a fresh beer. My concern is that I don稚 want too much headspace in the tertiary for fear that acetobacter will take up residence.

I will have a free 5 gallon glass carboy available if you think that is a better way to go than the 3 gallon. Either way I知 going with an rubber stopper and airlock, so the fruit fermentation will hopefully purge most of the oxygen out of the fermenter.

Al B
08/07/07 12:04 PM  
Re: Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect
A year should be ok. The fruit fermentation will certainly take care of any Acetobacter.
BPotts
08/07/07 12:22 PM  
Re: Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect
Al-

So do you think it would be ok to bottle soon? It sounds as though from what you're saying the bretts do not have as strong an impact as usual in this mixture. I'm assuming the chances of super attenuation are less? I pitched it strait from the bottom of the bottle with a pack of the Farmhouse ale yeast and as I said after 2-3 weeks it already has a nice funky flavor (even with the low pitch rate)....after transfering to the secondary there doesn't seem to be much activity (although I know that can be deceiving), but from what I've been reading it seems bretts in conjuction with sach. used as a primary will go through the sugars more quickly and end up less likely to super attenuate to extremes in the bottle......

Al B
08/07/07 12:42 PM  
Re: Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect
I didn't want to assume the red wasn't aged thoroughly - even though the gravity is down to 1010, a large popualtion of fiesty young yeast (Sacch and/or Brett) can get volcanic when ones adds more sugars into the mix. After a year or so, yeasts get tired and larger populations of Sacch may die off or go dormant. Mixed populations are complex, so its good to know all parameters.

Bottling should be OK at 1010, simple sugars are best if priming.

BPotts
08/07/07 12:48 PM  
Re: Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect
Was that directed towards my question? I was referring to a different beer using the Fantome bugs....
BPotts
08/07/07 12:50 PM  
Re: Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect
Ooops....guess not....
Al B
08/07/07 12:54 PM  
Re: Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect
Actually it was...but maybe not.....

What was the question again?

Al Befuddled

Al B
08/07/07 12:58 PM  
Re: Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect
Oh, the Fantome bugs.........sorry....still have wet-brain from last weeks OBF in Portland.

Whats the gravity now ?

BPotts
08/07/07 01:04 PM  
Re: Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect
Ahhh...wish I could have been out there to attend! My brother lives in OR.....

Actually, i'm not sure....I have yet to take a reading....I don't usually usethe hydrometer much but I'm learning it's more necessary for beers like this.....I think's pretty low, tasted pretty dry and it was quite clear....

Al B
08/07/07 01:12 PM  
Re: Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect
FG will be key if Bretts (and some species of lactobacillus) are in the mix.

Also, There's been some Fantome discussions awhile ago (not sure if you saw that) - might help - I guess you could type in Fantome up above?

BPotts
08/07/07 03:07 PM  
Re: Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect
Okeydokey, i saw a little bit but I'm sure there's more I didn't see..... will do....thanks
BPotts
08/10/07 04:49 PM  
Re: Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect
Al.....checked the gravity today of the Fantome brew, down to .009......I think that's probably low enough to bottle safely, what do you think?
BPotts
08/10/07 05:06 PM  
Re: Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect
1.009 that is
Al B
08/10/07 10:20 PM  
Re: Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect
Should be OK at .009, although the brew you made may contain dextrins - they will break down more slowly by Brett. So monitor the bottles accordingly for an increase in carbonation. Its likely to become more sour faster due to Lactobacillus that is (probably) present from the F-dregs. You can chill it to slow it down (obviously).

Good luck.

BPotts
08/10/07 10:55 PM  
Re: Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect
Cool....I will add .5 to .75 times the amount of sugar I normally use for bottling, and hopefully this offset will make up for the extra sugars that might break down. Thanks for the help!

..... when I tasted it today, it was much more mild than expected....The first time I tasted it, the sample was filled with yeast...this time it was strait from the top and tasted much less funky than a mouth full of Fantome yeast (but still nice).

Mike T
08/22/07 02:32 PM  
Re: Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect
Here is what I ended up doing:

I now have 5 gallons of the Belgian Pale in the secondary souring (~4 gallons in the primary, 1.5 gallons of spring water added to secondary)

7.5 lbs pils (Franco-Belge)

3 lbs Wheat malt

.5 lbs CaraHell

Mash: (Step Infusion)

125 for 20 min

147 for 60 min

158 for 15 min

115 minute boil with a combination (using up last years stock) of 1 year old hops (Saaz, Mt. Hood, Crystal, Cascade) to 25 IBUs with 90 minutes left in the boil.

OG = 1.065 (1.046 including top off water in secondary)

Fermented for 1 week around 65 with WYeast Ardennes. Gravity was down to 1.016 when I transferred it to secondary and added the top-off water.

Picture of the beer in going into secondary (with an oak/stopper/airlock assembly of my own design):

bp1.blogger.com/_7Ue6KBH0xVw/Rsti3U03fzI/AAAAAAAAAIg/HYzuizuj4Zc/s1600-h/Wood+Aging+BPA.jpg

The "infected" oak soaked for a week in the dregs from both the Flanders Red and a bottle of RR Depuration: bp3.blogger.com/_7Ue6KBH0xVw/RstjP003f0I/AAAAAAAAAIo/qDlP58mPGWQ/s1600-h/Funky+Glass.jpg

Picture of the Flanders Red with 4 lbs of blackberries (pellicle starting to form after 1 week):

bp3.blogger.com/_7Ue6KBH0xVw/Rstgw003fxI/AAAAAAAAAIQ/HukkPTWHdt4/s1600-h/Blackberry+Flanders+Red.jpg

The half of the Flanders Red I bottled is nice and clean with a moderate tartness (warm, uncarbonated), but nowhere near as sour as La Folie or Rodenbach Grand Cru. A very productive week of 砺acation.

BPotts
09/12/07 08:29 PM  
Re: Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect
Mike -

Just wanted to update you on the beer I mentioned above brewed to the similar style that you were asking about...

It's been bottled for about a week now, after roughly 2 months of primary/secondary fermenting. The lacto is a bit stronger than a typical Fantome(where I got the bugs I used), but, I am really happy with the results. I can't stop tasting bottles..... The best way to describe how it turned out is somewhere between a flemish primitive ale and a "double berliner-weisse." It's dry, has a nice light malty/bready flavor, supported by gentle funk and a light, but sharp, sour twang. In fact, I'm quite surprised how sour it is considering the relatively short aging period. It's very quaffable and thirst quenching. Gonna be tough to keep them packed away!

Anyway, good luck with the brew!

Mike T
09/26/07 09:07 AM  
Re: Flanders Red: How much fruit? What to infect
"Just wanted to update you on the beer I mentioned above brewed to the similar style that you were asking about..."

Very cool, sounds tasty.

I won't be checking on my beer for another few months, but I'll be ready to bottle it when I do if it has gotten sour as fast as yours did.

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