Welcome to the homeBBBrew board!
Like the BBB, the homeBBBrew board is not a club, just a place to talk about making beer. Is there a swap you would like to see happen? If we can find a few others who have something similar then lets do it!

NO SPECIFIC REASON FOR THIS LINK...
I just really like the work levifunk is doing!

PASSWORD PROTECTION: READ THIS BEFORE POSTING!
YOUR BBB USERNAME AND PASSWORD WILL NOT WORK ON THIS BOARD! If you want to post, you need to read this.

HomeBBBrewBoard
HotLinks!
Brettanomyces Brewing
E-Symposium Transcript!

Trouble making Trappists?
Discover Liquid Candy Syrup!
See what color impact to expect from liquid candy.

Search for:
Author Replies
BPotts
10/08/07 09:39 AM  
Lacto/Pedio only imperial red
I little over a week ago I brewed an imperial flemish pale/red ale and fermented it with the 3rd gen. of Charlie's "Cry Havoc" yeast and a blend of Lacto and Pedio. It appeared the beer fermented out pretty nicely, finishing up rigerous activity within 5 or 6 days or so. When I tasted the beer last it night it tasted of harsh fusel alcohol with almost no sweetness at all....the gravity stopped at around 1.016, but tastes like it dropped to .990 or something. I never had this problem of such extreme heat in the nose and flavor of my beer. Has anyone else fermented a beer with only a mix of bacterias without brett? I'm wondering if this has something to do with it, but I don't know how they might be connected....I'm hoping it will wellow after racking to a secondary and aging for a few months.....
SteveG
10/08/07 09:49 AM  
Re: Lacto/Pedio only imperial red
First thing Ben, I'm not really familiar with an "imperial red". Can you give a commercial example of what you were shooting for, or was this a formula designed to crank up a flanders red beyond traditional levels?
BPotts
10/08/07 05:34 PM  
Re: Lacto/Pedio only imperial red
It's really just what I'm calling it. I was aiming for a high gravity reddish sour brew. Not necessarily trying to exactly match the flavor profile of a flanders red, just a strong tart ale. Not sure of a commercial example, haven't had one made with just bacterias that I'm aware of.
Mike T
10/09/07 08:54 AM  
Re: Lacto/Pedio only imperial red
What was your fermentation temp? What was your OG?

Any details on your recipe/method might help someone spot the issue (if there in fact is an issue).

I bet the beer will be fine, just give it some time. In my experience sour beers often taste down right gross while the microbes are in the middle of doing their thing (the end products are tasty, the intermediary substances are not).

SteveG
10/09/07 09:03 AM  
Re: Lacto/Pedio only imperial red
That's true, unlike a more sessiony beer nothing good could ever come from tasting a bug beer very young! Ben, so this is a bit of an experiment for you, cool. I should ask, do you have any past work by which to measure your progress? Bumping up a red is a nice thing to do, I've gone to about 1065 with them and they can work great. But Pedio would make me a little nervous. Have you ever made a beefier FRed (thats what I call my Flanders Red ... FRed!) using a more conventional innoculation approach? If so it might help measure this short term result.
BPotts
10/10/07 08:34 AM  
Re: Lacto/Pedio only imperial red
I used 6 lbs of pilsen DME, 3 lbs of 50/50 Wheat DME, 1 lb of clear candy sugar, 4 oz torrified wheat, 4 oz of acidulated malt, 4 oz of caravienne, 4 oz of munich III, and 1 lb. of special b. 3 oz. of rose hips were added at the end of the boil. Starting OG was around 1.09-1.095. Fermented at around 70 , but it might have gotten up to the upper 70's one day when it got a little warm (we're having crazy fall weather in Philly)

Yes this is an experiment of sorts. I made it for my girl-friend and hoped it would be about ready by x-mas... I have made a beefier saison/flanders pale type thing with the fantome dregs. This was aged only a few months but got nice and tart quickly, and is very smoooth and tastes fine (FG of about .006). I also made beefier flanders red type thing with fruit (which is much more like a lambic now), fermented with wyeasts lamblend, and this was aged for roughly a year, and it also tastes fine. Both of these were slightly larger than their traditional counterparts, but nowhere near as beefed up as this recipe. Also, I do have an extra-high gravity brew which fermented a little more than have way, down to about 1.058 or so right now(down from 1.131), which has been sitting for about half a year I guess...that also tastes fine (actually great!) but there's lots of sugars in it still to balance the 10 % abv it has reached. So.....my past experience told me this "imperial" FRed would probably turn out fine. It actually has some reaally nice interesting flavors in the background but they are muddled by the heat. Steve, why does the pedio worry you?

BPotts
10/10/07 08:35 AM  
Re: Lacto/Pedio only imperial red
Also, I did a 2 hour boil, and I pitched the pedio/lacto in the primary with the sacch.
BPotts
10/10/07 08:46 AM  
Re: Lacto/Pedio only imperial red
"1 lb of clear candy sugar"

make that dark candi sugar

SteveG
10/10/07 10:44 AM  
Re: Lacto/Pedio only imperial red
Well, Pedio can be a good souring agent but it is capable of producing large amounts of diacetyl. I did a lager run 9 or 10 months ago, looks like some Pedio snuck into my first beer (golden lager) then I reused the yeast cake. This kind of thing happens to me really infrequently, mongo sucks when it does though. The first beer I was able to keep under control and drank the whole thing. But the second and third beers, an Ofest and Baltic Porter, both ended up circling the drain. Huge , out of control butter flavors - a real heart breaker. So I look at Pedio warily.

So your above note is the first one where I noticed you mentioned sacch. Then that was part of this 3rd generation blend I assume? I was wondering how just a couple bugs managed to blow through a big wort in a week!

This would be a neat topic for our bug gurus, any insights on how lacto or Pedio might interact with fusels? In my experience alcohol heat is not something that goes away in a couple months, but I wonder if other bacteria can have an effect?

Ben, my guess as to how the fusels got there would be that though your ambient temperature may have been in the 70s (and being over the border I wonder if last week we are really talking justs 70s, it was worse than that here) I bet that wais not your actual fermentation temperature. Big slurry, rapidly churning through a 1090 wort, I bet the feeding frenzy fermentation itself created a lot of extra heat. The tradional known causes of fusels are high heat, under pitching and lack of O2. I'd have to pick door number 1.

BPotts
10/11/07 10:36 AM  
Re: Lacto/Pedio only imperial red
I have all of my bug beers fermenting in an upstairs closet while I ferment all of my other beer in the basement bathroom, and I have seperate sets of equipment, so I'm not too concerned about cross contamination. Do you use pedio in your bug beers at all? I had noticed that there were some recipes using just those two bacterias in wild brews and figured I would try it.

I mentioned the sacch in the first post:

"Charlie's "Cry Havoc" yeast and a blend of Lacto and Pedio."

Cry Havoc is Charlie Papazian's yeast strain now offered by WL.....which, in itself is a pretty versatile yeast. It can be used for lagers and ales, and can ferment at the required temps for both.

Yeah it was warmer outside but it wasn't as warm in the house, I had an A/C on when it got real hot....anyhow you're probably correct on the temp being significantly higher inside the carboy, but I didn't think it would be that much higher to have such a durastic effect. I never had this problem before when fermenting a little warm...I suppose that symptom would be the clue though as it was definitly not underpitched (used a healthy batch from a previous beer) and aerated very well. I'll be racking it to the secondary today and when I do I'll conduct another tasting.

Not sure if this would have anything to do with it, but the pedio I used was an old ass package that the homebrew store just gave me, it was manufactered sometime in 2006. The owner said it would probably work fine, and they're pretty trusty, so I figured it would be ok, they haven't steered me wrong yet...I assumed the same because pedio can act for a very long time in aging beers...it smelled nice and sour when I pitched into the wort, so it seemed active.

Opinions on the use of bugs would be nice. I was thinking if all else fails and in a couple months there's no difference to just add brett...or maybe blending it with another of the brett beers I have aging (possibly the half-way mega sour brew)

BPotts
10/11/07 09:16 PM  
Re: Lacto/Pedio only imperial red
Took another [very small] taste after racking. It tasted hot, but not as hot as I remembered. I think it just tastes very dry, and since it's high alcohol it tastes very alcoholly. For some reason there just aren't any other flavors coming out right now, strangely enough....I'm gonna let this one go a bit longer before I worry....
SteveG
10/12/07 09:08 AM  
Re: Lacto/Pedio only imperial red
Glossed right over the first mention of yeast, sorry. I don't use pedio intentionally, and actually over the last year my perceptions of how beer can be soured has started to really evolve. It sounds like this beer is just a couple weeks old, let us know how it is sometime in '08! I like my sour beers to live through at least one summer.
BPotts
10/12/07 10:43 AM  
Re: Lacto/Pedio only imperial red
Guess I should have done this in May!

This is my sixth beer with bugs and so far each one has turned out quite different....(as everyone says)....the sourness is still something I'm trying to figure out....so far the WL sour blend and the fantome dregs have given the most bang for the buck in terms of providing a nice acidity....so this is an experiment using strictly acid producing bacteria (with a bit of sacch. to help), without wild yeasts, to see what level of tartness I can get out of them alone...I'll be sure to update!

SteveG
10/12/07 11:09 AM  
Re: Lacto/Pedio only imperial red
If I might add a factor of complication to your experimenting...

For years, as in a decade plus, I was convinced that brett was the downfall of a sour beer like an old bruin (or flanders red, personally I think they are the same thing). It came from my first OB I made in '95. It was Goudenband-like (from the Liefmans days) ... until the brett that I pitched along with whatever other souring bug kicked in. Actually for all I know that other bug could have been pedio. Anyway, it went from bullseye to dirty, barnyardy, etc. Place heart on block. Hit with sledge hammer. Enjoy your beer.

In the last year and change though I have really altered my perspective, or more accurately Al has. I think back in the mid 90s, WYeast lambic mix days there was not a good understanding of the potential of brett or the full role of bacteria in general. This past January I made a Berliner weisse with all brett that tasted of wheat and sour and nothing else. It was actually clean. I have not yet tried an OB using brett exclusively but it is in the cards. It is my unproven belief that an all brett solution to an OB may well simplify an otherwise complex, tough to nail problem.

BPotts
10/12/07 12:27 PM  
Re: Lacto/Pedio only imperial red
I suppose my experience is a micro cosm of yours....My first bug beer was with the WY L-blend, and just like you said it turned out a lot more horsey/musty/uriney than sour...I bottled half and it seems to be getting more sour and developing different flavors from maturing in the bottle, so I felt a little better about it. Then I used the Sour Blend from white labs, and that gave me a much more tart, less horsey brew. They don't tell what is exactly in their blend though....Moving on from that I used the fantome dregs, which gave me incredible tartness in three months in the sort of "double berliner weiss"...and it's very clean... go figure! From there i decided to try this, as everyone attributes the tartness from Fantome to lacto. Although after trying this pedio/lacto only maybe it's not the lacto in Fantome? Anyhow, I see what you're saying. Last sunday I went to Monk's and they had the Russian river Sanctification brett only beer on tap (what luck!). I guess Vinnie used clausenii for that? It was very funky pineappley vinous in the nose, but had a real nice tartness to it, and the funk took a back seat in the flavor. It was nice and balanced though, not too tart. What brett did you use for the berliner? I'm thinking maybe some Brett. Lambicus might be a good addition to this....
SteveG
10/12/07 12:36 PM  
Re: Lacto/Pedio only imperial red
The Berliner as 2-300ml of pure, rarin' to go Clausinii. Fermented like a Yellowstone gyser, beer was completely done in under 7 days. The theory there is that there was not enough of a gravity engine to take the C. to the next step where tartness is replaced by fruit complexity. Subsequent C. beers have maintained tartness, though they represent far less of the profile in a proportion sense than the Berliner. Oh, and they take more than a week!!

Nice on the Sanctification!

Recent explorations have revealed the Brett L. can produce a slightly tart, less horsey beer. Al pulled that one off. He made a sessiony lawnmower beer out of pure Brett L. - amazing!!

Baums
10/12/07 12:58 PM  
Re: Lacto/Pedio only imperial red
Hey Potts,

Fusels are produced as a byproduct when yeast metabolize amino acids from the wort. So, high gravity beers (which have more amino acids in the wort) generally have more fusels. Adding amino acids in the form of yeast nutrient will of course have a similar effect. On the other hand, adding refined sugar increases gravity without contributing amino acids (hence fusels).

Unfortunately it's not as simple as that, because yeast have another pathway where they make fusels when they RUN OUT of amino acids. So you have to be wary of having too many OR too few amino acids.

You are pretty much good to go if you brew all-grain with 0-30% refined sugar adjunct (with fusels generally going down the more sugar you use). But if you're doing extract it's harder to say whether you've got too many amino acids or too few, cause you just don't know what's in the extract.

In any case, the heat doesn't help! Much of the reason for the popular "rising ferment temp" approach is that many fusels are produced at the start of the ferment (when the yeast take in lots of amino acids), so the idea is to keep the beer cold at that time even if you otherwise want to ferment warm.

As for how pedio interacts with fusels, I have no idea. My *guess* is that it doesn't. If you're looking for something that tastes different than your current beer + lactic acid (+ maybe diacetyl), then personally I'd add the brett. Who knows exactly what it will do, but I think it will add/change character and maybe even have a small effect on fusel levels.

Baums

BPotts
10/12/07 04:46 PM  
Re: Lacto/Pedio only imperial red
Steve, yes I saw some other post where you mentioned the Br. Lam. and that sounded nice...

Baums, thanks for the detailed response! It just seems strange because I've never had this problem before using DME, even with bugs. In fact the half-way-high-gravity sour brew I did months back is very smooth considering the 10% abv at this point... One thing that is different is that I used a lot of pilsen extract which seems to ferment a lot further than usual DME. Maybe the pilsen malt does not have enough aminos? I did add nutrient, the standard amount for 5 gallons, because the sacch. yeast was on it's third run and had just before fermented a higher gravity beer. Fermentation was quick though, and the gravity dropped to about 1.016-1.018. It's still bubbling out of the air lock very slowly.

But I think I have decided to go with the brett. L....so, can I expect this to superattenuate as well since the pedio and other bugs are residing in there as well? Hopefully this will be ok...I know rodenbach uses a mixed bacteria/sacch culture before adding it to the brett infested barrels, so maybe this would simulate this porcess....I just wasn't planning on aging this for one to two years.

Baums
10/15/07 10:41 AM  
Re: Lacto/Pedio only imperial red
Yeah, it's just very hard to know what you have with regard to amino acids in your extract. The brand, or the age, of the extract will matter, and with a 10% beer the effect will be amplified.

You might want to stick with one brand to get the majority of your extract in these high alcohol beers, and learn by trial and error how much nutrient you need. Also make sure the extract is fresh, use a yeast that's a low fusel producer (and plenty of it), and ferment really cool for the first half of the ferment.

By the way, what brand of nutrient did you use, and how much? Some brands (such as Fermax with Crosby and Baker logo, I think) seem to have recommended levels meant for *wine*, that seem way too high for beer...

BPotts
10/15/07 02:18 PM  
Re: Lacto/Pedio only imperial red
Wyeast's nutrient blend, 1/2 teaspoon for 5 gal.
utidoAntibben
10/30/07 02:21 PM  
[deleted]
Sorry
Brendan
10/30/07 06:45 PM  
Re: Lacto/Pedio only imperial red
So has this thing taken off, and what's happened over tha past few weeks?
Brendan
10/30/07 06:47 PM  
Re: Lacto/Pedio only imperial red
Oops. early send. have the fusels mellowed?
BPotts
10/30/07 07:11 PM  
Re: Lacto/Pedio only imperial red
Well it's been happily aging in an upstairs closet. I'm waiting to taste, probably until the end of November or so (gonna give the bacteria more of chance to make an impact.)
Baums
10/31/07 10:07 AM  
Re: Lacto/Pedio only imperial red
That amount of nutrient doesn't seem too excessive. So, I'd guess the fusels are more related to the initial temp, the health of the yeast (repitching from very high grav into very high grav is REALLY hard--though possible if you feed and oxygenate/aerate the slurry in between, almost like making a continuously aerated starter), and the always open question of whether the amino levels in your extract are extremely low or not.
BPotts
02/07/08 08:07 PM  
Re: Lacto/Pedio only imperial red
Tasted this yesterday, roughly two months after adding some cultured up dregs from Fantome, which smelled very bretty. Now a very pleasant beer. No heat, or at least hell of a lot less than originally. Tasted very floral with slight bretty character. Reminds me a bit of La Rulles Cuvée Meilleurs Voeux, which is a strong brownish ale fermented with orval yeast. So far, turning out to be an interesting experiment...
BPotts
05/28/08 07:36 PM  
Re: Lacto/Pedio only imperial red
Hey folks! Tasted this beer again, and took a gravity reading. I guess the starter for the fantome dregs that i added bumped up the gravity a bit because it was at ~1.017. The aroma was funky brett, and the taste was very pleasant - flowery, actually pretty dry tasting, subtle fruit, and a nice little acidic punch. All of the fusel alcohols have diminished and the bite has almost completely faded. The Fantome dregs have done it again! I plan on bottling it this weekend.

 
Return to Forum

Post a Reply
Your Name:
Subject:
Message Body:


 
   
Username

Password

Around Bruges in 80 Beers: 2nd Edition

Around London in 80 Beers

Around Brussels in 80 Beers


Babblebelt contributors in attendance: