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SAH
10/19/07 12:32 AM  
Which Pedio?
Wyeast website lists 2 Pediococcus strains: Pediococcus cerevisiae™ and 'plain' Pediococcus. But both have the same number. Are these two actually different, and if so what are the differences. Maybe I should just email them, but I thought some people here might know and give a quicker response. Thanks.

Al B
10/19/07 08:44 AM  
Re: Which Pedio?
They are the same, I believe.

Al Bacteria

BPotts
10/19/07 10:01 AM  
Re: Which Pedio?
I noticed this as well. The two even have different statistics according to them:

Pediococcus cerevisiae™

Flocculation: Low

Attenuation: NA

Temperature Range: 60-95F, 15-35C

Alcohol Tolerance: 12% ABV

Pediococcus™

Flocculation:

Attenuation:

Temperature Range: 60-95° F (15-35° C)

Alcohol Tolerance: approximately 9% ABV

(they leave the above fields blank)

Why would the alcohol tolerance differ? Also, they just updated their website not to long ago and this has been listed ever since. Maybe they updated the stats/name and just forgot to delete one of the listings? I can't see them letting that slip between the cracks though, you would think they would have cought that by now. I was thinking the cerevisiae maybe contains some sacch in order to be used for primary fermentation instead of to infect in the secondary? Hmmmm.......You should e-mail them, they are very helpful and informative with questions pertaining to their bugs.

Al B
10/19/07 10:28 AM  
Re: Which Pedio?
There were some questions in the past about the exact species for the lactic bugs (particularly the lactobacillus). Therefore, Wyeast decided to go with the Genus nomenclature. The alcohol tolerance may have been re-evaluated. In any case, the strain(s) will behave the same for most applications. They are also pure cultures of Pedio.
BPotts
10/19/07 10:35 AM  
Re: Which Pedio?
Than why bother with two listings? they should change that.
Baums
10/19/07 03:33 PM  
Re: Which Pedio?
I am pretty sure that any lacto or pedio you buy from them these days will only be designated by "lactobacillus" or "pediococcus." This is a good thing, because more specificity can be worse than useless if it is not correct.

I had intended to email White Labs and Wyeast to ask them for the basis on which they sell their brett strains under the names they do--but haven't done it yet. This could be useful information, since the history of some of these strains is well documented and certain meaningful properties are known(trouble fermenting maltose, ability to make citric acid, ability to ferment lactose, pellicle formation, etc).

A problem is that with the shifting classifications of bretts, some of these names don't have all that much meaning. Still, knowing that a particular strain is the same one that Claussen used in his patented process for making old stock ale might be useful to know.

SAH
10/22/07 10:28 PM  
Re: Which Pedio?
Next question, can it ferment on its own like lacto or brett? And will it do this in a similar amount of time?
Baums
10/23/07 10:55 AM  
Re: Which Pedio?
Hilde Martens' thesis lists the results of fermentations with various combinations of the lacto, pedio, and sacharromyces strains found in Rodenbach. I can't remember all the results off hand--I do recall that lacto was unable to produce much acid in a secondary ferment (i.e. with ethanol present) but did better when it had the wort all to itself. Pedio produced plenty of acid in both cases, I think.

Sidenote: I think the results of that thesis suggest that lacto does not play a major role with respect to sourness in Rodenbach, despite what is written in some books and articles. 80% of the lactic acid comes from pedio, and probably you'd get the other 20% from pedio too, if the lactobacillus didn't produce it first.

SAH
10/23/07 11:59 AM  
Re: Which Pedio?
Thanks Baums, interesting info. I see an all Pedio beer in my furure.
Al B
10/23/07 12:07 PM  
Re: Which Pedio?
WHOA! Now hold thar Babalooey!

Pedio does not produce alcohol!!!

Just acids + diacetyl for the most part.

Al B lookin for yer best interest

SAH
10/23/07 09:23 PM  
Re: Which Pedio?
Al B,

Thanks for the info, what if said Pedio beer where blended with a beer that did contain alcohol? Too much diacetyl?

Al B
10/24/07 07:17 AM  
Re: Which Pedio?
Well in that case, I suspect you will only blend a small portion of the Pedio brew due to high acidity content. This may be adequate. And if not, a pseudo diacetyl-rest with Sacch. yeast may help.

But I really don't think you should go this route. Why not just add Pediococcus to your other brew?

SAH
10/24/07 04:06 PM  
Re: Which Pedio?
Al B,

Yes, I ws planning on blending a small portion of "Pedio beer" with a larger volume of "Other beer".Why? Speed is the main reason. I'd like to go the long-traditional route on some beers( and I am don't worry ) and on other beers, like the 100% Brett beers, I'd like to find faster routes to a quality beer. I was imagining blending an all Pedio beer with an all Brett beer with an all Lacto beer for instance. What do you think? I imagine it must not work well or it would be common practice. Also, how/when would I do a psuedo diacetyl rest?

Al B
10/24/07 06:29 PM  
Re: Which Pedio?
Man. Thats a different approach and I can't argue with trying to speed things up. I dunno. I doubt you'll need alot of Pedio beer to blend. However, I'm not sure if the blended end-product will have any of the complexities of a mixed culture in a single wort due to the interactions of endproducts and bugs. For example, acetic acid, lactic acid would be converted to ethyl lactate and ethyl acetate by the Bretts in a mixed fermentation. Those esters are more desirable than the harsh acids alone.

Al Bacilli

Baums
10/25/07 09:41 AM  
Re: Which Pedio?
SAH,

You really should try to get your hands on Martens' thesis, because this is her exact point. How do you make something like Rodenbach, faster? She tries all kinds of tandem and sequential ferments with various things.

The best thing she came up with was a pure lactic fermentation first, followed by an alcoholic fermentation with sacc. (And for the pure lactic part, I think lactobacillus is easier to grow than pediococcus. Raj Apte has experience with this for the same blending purpose you are thinking of--see his page for that).

The one aspect that is missing, is that as Al says the esters that brett makes are a big part of the profile. Hard to do that part fast. Maybe large quantities of a good brett for secondary aging, at a fairly high temp (say 75F) would speed that up, but that's just speculation. I did make a good Flanders Red pretty fast (6 mo or so) and I think a lot happened when I went away for 2 weeks and my apartment temp soared to like 90F because I forgot to keep the AC on.

Baums

 
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