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Author Replies
CDH
10/25/07 02:06 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Bitter
I'd be fine using British crystal, if it were readily available locally. Right now Keystone (I'd guess your LHBS too, TedJ) has nothing British on the shelves darker than 15L. If we want to keep this light, then the Crisp Crystal 15 would work... but the original beer is nowhere near that light.

For what it's worth, I plan on using Munton's MO as my british pale malt too.

I'm also fine with scaling the malt up or the hops back to whatever makes you happy... but the calculator I use pegs DBear's recipe at close to a .5:1 BU:GU ratio, not the 1.25:1 that you're finding. Then again, no two IBU calculators ever agree anyway. I use the hbd.org Recipator, and the Tinseth method there.

Propose a newly modified recipe that makes you happier.

DBear
10/25/07 02:36 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Bitter
Team,

Just spoke with my LHBS and they have brit crystal 55, MO, and WY1318. I will be going there tomorrow to confirm the amount of crystal 55 they have in stock and will be glad to mail out if thats what you all want to do.

- I use Rager for IBUs in promash.

TedJ
10/25/07 05:02 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Bitter
I have a pound of Muntons 60L crystal and 1/2 lb of Fawcett 60L crystal. I can share with Chris.

I also have Maris Otter pale malt, some wheat malt and Golding hops.

I'll need to get the 1318 yeast and the Bram Cross hops. Chris did you ask Keystone about them? I'll see what I get in ProMash for the hops and propose a schedule, but do you guys agree that we should keep the hops at a moderate level so as to not hide the sugar flavors?

DBear
10/25/07 08:15 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Bitter

- I agree the hops should be balanced to showcase the sugar

- can everyone get the WY1318 if we all agree?

CDH
10/25/07 11:55 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Bitter
Ted,

I've got some Bramling Cross I can swap you for the Crystal.

Haven't spoken to Keystone about 1318 availability yet.

Ross
10/26/07 01:10 AM  
Re: Sugar Swap Bitter
Funny thing, I just threw out 4 ounces of Bramling Cross a few weeks ago that smelled a little cheesy to me. Anyway, I can online order the malts and the yeast from Northern Brewer. I usually can see the delivery in about 3 days. As far as the Bramling Cross, I'm not sure where I originally got mine so I'll have to look around I guess. BTW, my LHBS only sells White labs yeast. Like I said, I can order from NB.
CDH
10/26/07 10:33 AM  
Re: Sugar Swap Bitter
On the yeast front, 1318 and WLP002 are interchangable. There appears to be some dispute whether it is a dead ringer for Wyeast 1968 or 1318... but it's totally in the right ballpark.

Bramling Cross is on the North Country Malt inventory... but out of stock. Check brewbyu.com

DBear
10/26/07 01:47 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Bitter
Team,

Here is my cut at the recipe:

- efficency 68%

- Hops reduced to .68BU - from "Designing Great Beers" (hop AA actuals from LHBS)

- Challenger Hops - LHBS does not carry Bram Cross and I'm trying to provision locally. Let me know if challenger is to far out of the hop profile.

- Amber Liquid is SRM 40, 1.030 pppg (from Brian Mercer)

- WY1318

- OG 1.051

Group Bitter

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines

-------------------------------

08-C English Pale Ale, Extra Special/Strong Bitter

Min OG: 1.048 Max OG: 1.072

Min IBU: 30 Max IBU: 60

Min Clr: 6 Max Clr: 18 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics

----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.00 Wort Size (Gal): 5.00

Total Grain (Lbs): 9.74

Anticipated OG: 1.051 Plato: 12.67

Anticipated SRM: 11.0

Anticipated IBU: 35.2

Brewhouse Efficiency: 68 %

Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Formulas Used

-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.

Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.

Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg

Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey

Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %

Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %

Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

82.1 8.00 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row) Great Britain 1.038 3

12.8 1.25 lbs. Amber Liquid Sugar 1.030 40

3.2 0.31 lbs. Crystal 55L Great Britian 1.034 55

1.8 0.18 lbs. Wheat Malt America 1.038 2

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.

Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

0.50 oz. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 5.00 12.2 60 min.

0.50 oz. Wye Challenger Pellet 7.50 18.4 60 min.

0.75 oz. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 5.00 3.1 5 min.

0.25 oz. Wye Challenger Pellet 7.50 1.5 5 min.

Yeast

-----

WYeast 1318 London Ale III

TedJ
10/26/07 02:17 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Bitter
Chris and I can swap hops and crystal. I'm ok with using 1318, if not around local, I can order. From descriptions I think 1968 = WLP002, but have never used WLP002, but think results will be close with 1318.
DBear
10/26/07 02:53 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Bitter

- Gale HSB recipe basics (Chris, your recipe looks good)

kotmf.com/articles/ Under "Brewnversity" - "1500 UK Beers"

Includes: #530 George Gale & Co. Horndean Special Bitter / HSB. Worth looking at.

- WLP to WY comparison (shows WY1318 - WLP002)

kotmf.com/articles/yeastcomp.php

DBear
10/27/07 08:40 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Bitter

Hey, what's up?

Ross Lunato
10/28/07 10:09 AM  
Re: Sugar Swap Bitter
Guys,

Everyone settled on the recipe? If so, when do we brew?

TedJ
10/28/07 11:54 AM  
Re: Sugar Swap Bitter
Sorry haven't been checking in. Looks good. I haven't used challanger hops for late additions before, only bittering, and I have none on hand. I'll give Keystone a call. Probably try to brew next weekend if I can get the remaining supplies.

Has your sugar arrived yet? mine hasn't.

Ross
10/28/07 12:25 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Bitter
My sugar hasn't arrived yet although I spent the weekend with my wife :-)
CDH
10/28/07 12:40 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Bitter
Are the Bramlings that tough to source now? The switch to challenger is going to make this a very different beer.

My sugar isn't here yet either.

DBear
10/28/07 01:47 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Bitter

Since I have not used Challenger or BramX is it that subing challenger will make a very different beer and perhaps not good? This is info from "1500 UK Bers"

George Gale & Co.

- Horndean Special Bitter / HSB

- OG 1050

- 80% MO, 15% Sugar, 5% TW, B+ or 78.5% Pale, 15% White sugar, 5% TW, 1.5% B

- G (goldings), C (challenger), F (fuggles), G (dry-hop goldings)

No sugar yet, I wonder if we need to let Steve know and post our final recipe first?

TedJ
10/29/07 12:00 AM  
Re: Sugar Swap Bitter
Did some more checking and found this on HSB.

Dave Line's old book "Brewing Beers like those you buy" boils the BramX and goldngs for 90 minutes. 3/4 oz golding at flame out, soak for 15 minutes. Dry hop with goldings.

Michael Jackson in Beer Companion indicates HSB is made with fuggles and goldings.

"Brew Your Own Real Ale at Home" by Protz bitters with challenger, goldings & fuggles in the boil and adds goldings for last 15 minutes.

Since its not real clear what the exact hop schedule should be, let's go with goldings and challenger in boil and golding at five minutes and dry hop. I can get challenger at Keystone. Other option would be to substitude fuggles for challenger.

BPotts
10/29/07 02:15 AM  
Re: Sugar Swap Bitter
This is slightly off topic but i couldn't help but notice...CDH you go to keystone? which store? U member of the K. hops or LVHB's?
CDH
10/29/07 02:45 AM  
Re: Sugar Swap Bitter
Yup... a long time Keystone customer. Bought my first brew stuff from them 15 years ago, back when they were in the Montgomery Mart and Jason's dad was working there helping him out.

Not a member of Keystone Hops or otherwise, as I've never managed to remember which night it was on, and have never made it to a meeting.

CDH
10/29/07 03:19 AM  
Re: Sugar Swap Bitter
Hmmm... is that TW up there for Torrified Wheat? Might we want to use that in place of wheat malt?
DBear
10/29/07 10:23 AM  
Re: Sugar Swap Bitter
CDH,

The document has a list of grain acronymns but I could not find "TW". Torrified wheat would also be my guess based on the grain acronym "TB" for torrified barley.

I have challenger (7.5% AA) and EK goldings (5% AA) but don't know if enough until we agree on IBU's and DH

- Cheers

CDH
10/30/07 05:34 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Bitter
Well, my sugar has arrived, and digging around in my supplies, I've found 6 ounces of Munton's Crystal 60 left over from before.

If we're doing Challenger rather than Bram X, then I guess Ted and I won't need to swap ingredients before the brew.

Are we agreed on Dbear's last hack at the recipe? If those are the IBU calculations that make you all happy, they're fine by me.

I'll volunteer to do my moist brown sugar addition at 15 along with the whirlfloc. Who else will join me in a late sugar addition? Will we do solids late and liquids early, or darks late and lights early?

DBear
10/30/07 06:36 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Bitter

- I'll do the amber liquid early at 40 min.

- are we going to dry-hop and if so what/how much and in primary or secondary?

- what ferm temps/time do you suggest?

Andy

Ross
10/30/07 07:32 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Bitter
I'll do the sugar addition late or early, it doesn't matter to me. I'd have more input on the recipe if I've brewed this style before. So whatever you guys decide, it's totally cool with me.
CDH
10/30/07 08:01 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Bitter
One further thought--

No dry hopping has been mentioned in the recipe. I'd toss in .5 oz of goldings.

Dry hopping method is simple enough. Wait for krausen to settle, and chuck in the hops. If pellets, put 'em in a hop bag. Whole or plugs will stay put when you rack to the bottling bucket/keg.

CDH
10/30/07 08:09 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Bitter
One very final consideration:

priming rate.

Thoughts?

TedJ
10/30/07 10:07 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Bitter
I got my sugar today, but I didn't get any moist blonde. I got moist brown and amber liquid. I'll try to track the blonde down.

Chris, did you get enough moist brown to do 1.25 lbs? I now have 2 pounds of the moist brown.

I agree that the TW is torrified wheat, that is what Roger Protz included in his recipe (5%), along with 78.5% pale malt, 1.5% black and 15% white sugar. I don't think there is much of a difference between wheat malt and torrified wheat in the small amount we are using. I'd stick to wheat malt and the rest of the recipe above. Everybody ok on golding & challenger in finish and golding dry? I am.

For priming I suggest going for 2.2 volumes or 3.5 oz of sugar. Could use half white sugar and half swap sugar.

CDH
10/30/07 11:35 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Bitter
Ted,

Only got 1 lb of the moist brown and a bottle of the amber syrup. No moist blonde to swap, unfortunately.

DBear
10/31/07 08:05 AM  
Re: Sugar Swap Bitter
- I'm good with goldings and challenger in finish

- good with .5 oz goldings to dry-hop

- good with 2.2 volumes to carb

- I'm thinking 153F mash temp @ 1.5qts H2O/1 lb grain

- pitch rates from mrmalty.com

OG 1.050, 5 gal, yeast 10/01/07

- 175 billion cels

- 2 packs without starter

- 1 pack with 1qt starter

Cheers

Ross
10/31/07 10:35 AM  
Re: Sugar Swap Bitter
I have not yet received any sugar. Maybe it will arrive this week.
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