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Author Replies
Scott R
10/23/07 09:51 AM  
Sugar Swap Ole Ale
Following the lead of the sugar swap bitter group, I've started a thread for the Old Ale group to discuss recipes. Here is the recipe I submitted:

Old Ale

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines

-------------------------------

19-A Strong Ale, Old Ale

Min OG: 1.060 Max OG: 1.108

Min IBU: 30 Max IBU: 80

Min Clr: 10 Max Clr: 26 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics

----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.50 Wort Size (Gal): 5.50

Total Grain (Lbs): 17.00

Anticipated OG: 1.081 Plato: 19.63

Anticipated SRM: 14.0

Anticipated IBU: 36.9

Brewhouse Efficiency: 70 %

Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

73.5 12.50 lbs. Gambrinus ESB Malt Canada 1.036 4

14.7 2.50 lbs. Gambrinus Munich 10 Canada 1.036 10

5.9 1.00 lbs. Beet Sugar Generic 1.046 0

4.4 0.75 lbs. Crystal 60L America 1.034 60

1.5 0.25 lbs. Special B Malt Belgian 1.030 120

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.

Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.40 oz. Bullion Whole 9.40 36.9 60 min.

Extras

Amount Name Type Time

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

0.00 Unit(s)Whirlfloc Fining 20 Min.(boil)

Yeast

-----

WYeast 1968 London Extra Special Bitter

Mash Schedule

-------------

Mash Type: Single Step

Grain Lbs: 16.00

Water Qts: 19.25 - Before Additional Infusions

Water Gal: 4.81 - Before Additional Infusions

Qts Water Per Lbs Grain: 1.20 - Before Additional Infusions

Saccharification Rest Temp : 154 Time: 60

Mash-out Rest Temp : 0 Time: 0

Sparge Temp : 0 Time: 0

Total Mash Volume Gal: 6.09 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.

Scott R
10/23/07 09:53 AM  
Re: Sugar Swap Ole Ale
Here is the recipe John submitted via email:

Old Ale

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines

-------------------------------

19-A Strong Ale, Old Ale

Min OG: 1.060 Max OG: 1.108

Min IBU: 30 Max IBU: 80

Min Clr: 10 Max Clr: 26 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics

----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.00 Wort Size (Gal): 7.00

Total Grain (Lbs): 15.50

Anticipated OG: 1.080 Plato: 19.37

Anticipated SRM: 20.5

Anticipated IBU: 41.3

Brewhouse Efficiency: 65 %

Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Formulas Used

-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.

Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.

Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg

% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey

Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %

Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %

Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

87.1 13.50 lbs. Maris Otter UK 1.038 3

6.5 1.00 lbs. Turbinado Sugar Generic 1.046 0

4.8 0.75 lbs. Crystal 75L Great Britian 1.034 75

1.6 0.25 lbs. Black Patent Malt America 1.028 525

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.

Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.00 oz. Target Pellet 8.00 38.0 60 min.

1.00 oz. Goldings - Whole 4.60 3.3 5 min.

Extras

Amount Name Type Time

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.00 Unit(s)Whirlfloc Fining 15 Min.(boil)

4.00 Tsp Fermax yeast nutrient Other 5 Min.(boil)

Yeast

-----

White Labs WLP013 London Ale

Mash Schedule

-------------

Mash Type: Single Step

Grain Lbs: 14.50

Water Qts: 20.17 - Before Additional Infusions

Water Gal: 5.04 - Before Additional Infusions

Qts Water Per Lbs Grain: 1.39 - Before Additional Infusions

Saccharification Rest Temp : 154 Time: 90

Mash-out Rest Temp : 168 Time: 20

Sparge Temp : 170 Time: 60

Total Mash Volume Gal: 6.20 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.

Ryan
10/23/07 11:37 AM  
Re: Sugar Swap Ole Ale
I had just started thinking about this.

My recipe was closer to an Imperial Stout sort of thing but with IBUs in the mid 80s. OG 1.096-1.10, roasted barley, some chocolate and some black patent.

I have been thinking about adding oak too.

From what I've read, Olde ales are poorly defined but is this still in line?

Scott Jackson
10/23/07 01:49 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Ole Ale
Ryan, I think Scott and John's recipe are more in line with my idea of an Old Ale. Oak may be a good experiment but I would like to keep the recipe simple to help identify the sugar addition.

I would not mind doing a 10 gallon batch and splitting it up between 2 yeasts. I would need more sugar though.

Scott R
10/23/07 02:04 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Ole Ale
I had planned on doing a 10 gallon batch myself. If I don't have enough sugar to do it, I'll split the wort and do 2 five gallon boils. (or add the sugar to primary) I was also kicking around the idea of aging the second batch with some brett.

As far as I can tell, the recipes that both John and I posted fall in line with the old ale style described in Designing Great Beers. Sure, the style is pretty open, but if we end up adding a bunch of dark roasted malts, we might miss any color/taste differences between the sugar additions.

Having said that, I'm just happy to try something new so I'll go along with whatever.

Ryan
10/23/07 02:47 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Ole Ale
Scott (J and R)

I too was looking through Designing Great Beers when thinking about the Olde Ale. I don't have really strong feelings about what we do, but I am interested in understanding what is diagnostic about an Olde Ale compared with say Barley Wine or Imperial Stouts. Both seem to be heavy on hops, huge in alcohol content, and rather dark. Much like BW and Stouts...so how do you differentiate?

More to the point though...I agree that the addition of lots of roasted malts would detract from sugars so maybe not the best idea on my part.

Ryan

John A
10/23/07 03:46 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Ole Ale
I just got done brewing a couple Barley wines and Imperial stouts all 1.100+ so I would prefer to focus on a lower gravity, moderately hopped old ale. 1.075-80 Og, 35-40 IBU's would require less aging time so we can get it brewed and turned around. Has anyone received the sugar yet? I was wondering what lov the amber liquid is and how much color it will contribute.

John

Scott R
10/23/07 04:27 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Ole Ale
Ryan,

My understanding is that an old ale exhibits less attenuation than a barley wine and has less hops all the way around...less bitterness, less flavor/aroma (if any).

John,

I agree with the quicker aging/faster turn around. And I, too just finished a round of real high gravity beers. One thing that concerns me is the 1/4# of black patent in your recipe. I honestly haven't brewed anything with black patent in a very long time, but I remember it being pretty strong stuff. Is 1/4# just a color contribution or is it adding flavor, too?

I haven't seen any sugar yet and there doesn't seem to be much data available on the amber syrup.

ErikH
10/23/07 05:05 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Ole Ale
Sorry to be peeping into your swap thread, but for me one of the defining things about an English Old Ale has been the presence of a "vinous" quality - that slightly wine-like aroma and viscosity.

Hope that's helpful!

John A
10/23/07 05:58 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Ole Ale
Hey Scott,

Chocolate malt is another option but a 1/4# is not over the top in my opinion. It is only 1.6% of the total grain bill. It may seem like a lot but look at other styles that depend on black as a color malt. Most wee heavy recipes call for a base malt and 2-3 ozs of black. The other end of the spectrum is the robust porter that may have 3/4 to 1# of black. I understand where you are coming from but we are going to have to pick some sort of color malt(choc/black/roast) along with the sugar to get us in the 20+ L ball park. I do not have my copy of ray's book in front of me but what is the average % listed for color malts in the old ale chapter? It has to be more then 1.6% because the bjcp has a cut off of 26 L in the style guide lines.

John

Scott Jackson
10/23/07 06:15 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Ole Ale
Special B gives a lot of color (can see purple hints when help up to the light) and a nice plumy taste. I would rather use that than chocolate or black. The guildlines say SRM from 10 - 26. 10 is not very dark.
Scott R
10/23/07 09:15 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Ole Ale
Ok, I guess 1/4# isn't so much. Designing Great Beers shows between 1%-5% black patent. The book also talks about dark old ales and pale ones. The pale ones don't use chocolate or black patent...just crystal. So, we could, in theory, use the special B to get the color.

John, is the 75L crystal you use in your recipe Simpson's dark crystal? I just came across some and brewed my first batch with it.

John A
10/24/07 05:12 AM  
Re: Sugar Swap Ole Ale
Hey Scott,

It is Simpson's dark.

Scott R
10/24/07 09:56 AM  
Re: Sugar Swap Ole Ale
Thanks John. It would be nice to work some of that into this project, I think.

So, I guess what we need to figure out first is do we want to make a dark old ale or a pale one? Dark being with either chocolate or black patent or pale deriving its color from only crystal.

My vote goes for a pale old ale. I think it would more readily show the color contributions (or lack there of, in some cases) of the sugars.

What does everyone else think?

Scott Jackson
10/24/07 12:24 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Ole Ale
I still think it will be red, but I vote for the pale/non-black patent-chocolate.
Ryan
10/24/07 01:47 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Ole Ale
I'd be down for something pale to amber. I'm doing a mondo imperial stout so something on the lighter end would be my selfish pref.

ryan

John A
10/24/07 02:24 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Ole Ale
Pale/amber is fine with me.
Scott R
10/24/07 05:25 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Ole Ale
Ok, here's a suggestion, then for a pale old ale. It is basically John's recipe with special B used instead of the black patent.

I'm not sure what everyone has available as far as hops and grain. I think the Simpson's dark crystal would be nice in this but I don't know if everyone can get it.

I haven't checked my local shop yet, but it seems like the white labs 013 London is a bit more difficult to find.

Anyway, here's the recipe, let me know what you think:

Sugar Swap Old Ale

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines

-------------------------------

19-A Strong Ale, Old Ale

Min OG: 1.060 Max OG: 1.108

Min IBU: 30 Max IBU: 80

Min Clr: 10 Max Clr: 26 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics

----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.50 Wort Size (Gal): 5.50

Total Grain (Lbs): 15.50

Anticipated OG: 1.079 Plato: 19.14

Anticipated SRM: 13.3

Anticipated IBU: 43.0

Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %

Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

87.1 13.50 lbs. Gambrinus ESB Malt Canada 1.036 4

4.8 0.75 lbs. Crystal 75L Great Britian 1.034 75

1.6 0.25 lbs. Special B Malt Belgian 1.030 120

6.5 1.00 lbs. Beet Sugar Generic 1.046 0

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.

Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.50 oz. Bullion Whole 9.40 40.2 60 min.

1.00 oz. Goldings - E.K. Whole 5.00 2.8 5 min.

Extras

Amount Name Type Time

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

0.00 Unit(s)Whirlfloc Fining 20 Min.(boil)

Yeast

-----

White Labs WLP013 London Ale

Mash Schedule

-------------

Mash Type: Single Step

Grain Lbs: 14.50

Water Qts: 15.95 - Before Additional Infusions

Water Gal: 3.99 - Before Additional Infusions

Qts Water Per Lbs Grain: 1.10 - Before Additional Infusions

Saccharification Rest Temp : 154 Time: 60

Mash-out Rest Temp : 0 Time: 0

Sparge Temp : 0 Time: 0

Total Mash Volume Gal: 5.15 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.

Scott Jackson
10/24/07 05:36 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Ole Ale
How about Marris Otter as the base malt? I can get the ESB malt, but it seems to me the distinct character of MO would be nice in this recipe. Everything else looks good.

I can get the hops, but if somene else can't - is Challenger more available? (than Bullion)

I plan to brew on about 1 1/2 weeks. I will probably do one of the other group's recipes too. I got pretty cleaned out of beer at my wedding.

Scott R
10/24/07 06:58 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Ole Ale
Scott,

Ooops. I meant to structure the recipe around Marris Otter as the base. I just always seem to select the Gambrinus ESB since that is what I have in stock and what I brew my "English" beers with. So, yeah, Marris Otter it is.

As far as hops...I don't know what is generally available to everyone as far as English bittering hops. I noticed John's recipe called for Target but I haven't seen any of those around this area and I don't know how available Challenger is. Hopefully we can just go with the bullion.

I'm hoping to brew something small this weekend to build up a yeast cake for the old ale the following weekend. Sounds like we're in the same time frame.

John, Ryan, what do you guys think?

Also, I am planning on brewing this as a 10 gallon recipe and splitting the batch. Anyone else doing this?

John A
10/24/07 07:09 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Ole Ale
I just stocked up on 4 sacks of MO so I would like to use that as my base malt if no one objects. I have everything else in stock so I will brew this as soon as the sugar is delivered.
Ryan
10/24/07 07:58 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Ole Ale
I have a hard time getting Marris Otter. Anyone object to me doing this with 2 row pils? I know that I am not sophisticated enough to taste the difference yet, but you others probably are. I can get challenger but I've only seen bullion around here once befrore.

Also, I was thinking that since Brett is a character in Olde Ales that I might ferment with Brett l., but I wouldn't mind doing a split batch with Brett in one half and the London ale in the other.

I can do this one in the same time frame as you other guys.

are we all using the amber syrup? I haven't seen anything here yet. anyone else?

Scott R
10/24/07 11:33 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Ole Ale
Ryan,

I think splitting the batch and fermenting with brett l. sounds good. I was going to split mine and add some brett in secondary. (I don't think I have quite enough time to grow up a brett starter.)

As far as which sugar/syrup everyone is using, I checked back in my emails and found that Steve had attempted at one time to assign each person a different sugar. Here's the info he sent about our group:

OLD ALE

Scott R Dark liquid

John A Amber liquid

TedJ??? Moist blonde

Moist brown

Of course, we probably have issues with this. First, TedJ isn't part of the group, is he? And we don't seem to have a person for the moist brown sugar.

I know that I have dark syrup and moist brown sugar coming, so I could do either one. (Actually I was planning on doing 5 gallons of each.) I don't know what everyone else has been sent.

So...what sugar did everyone else get and how do we get beer brewed with each sugar so we can compare?

Also, Ryan, I personally don't have a problem with you using 2 row pils. The beer will have a different character but I'm not that rigid, especially if I can talk you into sending me one of your brett l. bottles when they are done!

Ryan
10/25/07 06:49 AM  
Re: Sugar Swap Ole Ale
<<OLD ALE

Scott R Dark liquid

John A Amber liquid

TedJ??? Moist blonde

Moist brown>>

Only minor problem I see here is that I seem to be missing from the list. Am I not on the Olde Ale list? I thought so, but may be mistaken.

r

SteveG
10/25/07 07:25 AM  
Re: Sugar Swap Ole Ale
Ryan, I sent out a contact list Tuesday to make it easier for people to email others in their group (though it did not include a sugar assignment) - you are definately in old ale. I'll try to get a resource page up today that will have everyones address, the sugar they'll be using and the group they are in. As recipes are negotiated I'll get those up there too. The Mild group is nearly done, last detail is we're zeroing in on the darkness of the crystal.
John A
10/25/07 08:54 AM  
Re: Sugar Swap Ole Ale
Ryan,

I have no problem with you using pils malt.

Scott Jackson
10/25/07 01:49 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Ole Ale
I am going to brew a 10 gallon batch and split it up into 2 5-gallons batches for fermentation. In one I will put my assigned sugar and in the other I will use homemade invert sugar. I have to work out how I will add the sugar (normally I put it in the boil) but I am excited to taste / see the difference.

I am good with the last recipe using MO as the base malt. I checked my homebrew store and we are out of Bullion hops so unless I mail-order some I will have to use Challenger.

Scott R
10/25/07 02:04 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Ole Ale
I have been thinking about the boiling hops issue and the availability of hops in different areas. I don't have a problem with people using either bullion or challenger. After all, they are bittering hops. I doubt we would notice a huge difference either way.

I was going to ask everyone when they plan on adding the sugar. It sounds to me that some of these change flavor-wise depending on when they are added. (Boil, post boil, etc.)

My plan is to add the sugar to primary. That way, I'll be able to do a whole 10 gallon batch, split it into 5 gallon fermenters and add the appropriate sugar.

So...how does everyone feel about adding the sugar to primary?

Ryan
10/25/07 02:11 PM  
sugar swap old ale
i think sugar in the primary is a good idea. If we do the above recipe and the OG is high (1.08) then incremental feeding of sugar later in the game will probably give us better attenuation anyway. What about sugar in on day two?

Scott R
10/25/07 11:44 PM  
Re: Sugar Swap Ole Ale
Alright, so here's what we've got for a 5 gallon batch:

(given 75% efficiency)

13.5# Marris Otter

.75# Simpsons Dark Cystal (75L)

.25# Special B

1# sugar of choice (Added on day 2 of primary fermentation)

1.5 oz Bullion or Challenger 60 minutes

1 oz Goldings 5 minutes

White Labs 013 London

Mash 154 dF

Target OG ~1.079

Target IBU 43

How does that sound with everyone?

Ryan
10/26/07 06:20 AM  
Re: Sugar Swap Ole Ale
good with me
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