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BPotts
10/24/07 10:30 PM  
Single Brett w. Sacch. = superattenuation?
As always I'm milling around ideas for a new bugger-brew, which brings me to this thought. Will brett superattenuate combined with a single strain of sacch., or act as if pitched alone? From Wild Brews I gathered that the superattenuation is strictly a result of the interaction between brett and pedio (or other bacteria). An all brett brew can finish in relatively normal time limits, would this be any different if a variety of sacch was in the mix?
Ryan
10/25/07 06:51 AM  
Re: Single Brett w. Sacch. = superattenuation?
BPotts,

from all that I've read and from listening to MikeT on BasicBrewing Radio, Brett will ONLY superattenuate when used in secondary following Sacch. Mike mentioned that an all Brett beer somehow gets 'used to' eating maltose etc.... and so seems to give up later on the larger dextrins.

BPotts
10/25/07 08:31 AM  
Re: Single Brett w. Sacch. = superattenuation?
What about if pitched WITH the sacch in primary?
Ryan
10/25/07 08:51 AM  
Re: Single Brett w. Sacch. = superattenuation?
oops sorry I misread that.

Mike T
10/25/07 08:55 AM  
Re: Single Brett w. Sacch. = superattenuation?
It depends on your definition of super-attenuation, I had a beer go from 1.100 to 1.009 with Brett in the secondary, but Im not sure if that is technically super-attenuation or if it is just a dry beer. I have yet to have a Brett beer finish as dry as an Orval, but I suspect that they mash Orval in an attempt to promote really high attenuation.

I tend to get around 80% attenuation with Brett as the primary and around 90% with Brett in the secondary. I would guess that pitching Brett and Sacch together would land you somewhere in that general range. However, if you pitch way more Sacch than Brett, you might end up with the Brett just acting as if it had been pitched in the secondary. As for how long it would take to finish out, I have no idea, but Id guess closer to the 100% Brett end if you pitch a nice healthy slurry of each.

Id certainly be interested to hear if anyone has given this a try.

SteveG
10/25/07 09:19 AM  
Re: Single Brett w. Sacch. = superattenuation?
I was also wondering how attenuated is super-attenuated. My last all brett beer went from 1.055 or so to 1.007, does that count? I'm not actually so sure what would be gained by dropping lower than that, 1.007 was delightfully dry.
Baums
10/25/07 09:49 AM  
Re: Single Brett w. Sacch. = superattenuation?
BPotts I think this is one of those things that nobody really understands. Lots of theories out there, but I don't think even the people who get paid to study this stuff with gas chromatographs actually understand brett superattenuation. Fortunately it's not that big a deal--the beer will be what it will be, and the only big problem you could run into is exploding bottles. But if you secondary it for a couple months, and then open bottles regularly enough to check on the carbonation after that, it won't be an issue.
SteveG
10/25/07 10:30 AM  
Re: Single Brett w. Sacch. = superattenuation?
I bottled my last all-brett (fermented with C., finished with L.) several months after the last of the brett went in. Maybe 6 months. I took a reading at one point, it was 1.007 and maybe 2 months later I took another and it had not moved. I can say that months later the bottles were very stable, even the non-fridgerated ones.
ErikH
10/25/07 01:41 PM  
Re: Single Brett w. Sacch. = superattenuation?
Just as another data point, I made a pale-ish thing with yeast harvested from a prior Single (heh heh, as opposed to a single Prior) that used WY1762 for the primary and cultured-up Orval dregs for a month in the secondary.

I repitched this mixed Sacch/Brett slurry after a few months of refrigeration as the yeast for this new beer, and it went from 1.048 to 1.007 (similar to Steve's experience, though a little lower attenuation at about 85% apparent).

It has gotten perceptibly brettier in the bottle and a little dryer, but not what I would call super-attenuated or even overcarbonated.

BPotts
10/25/07 02:12 PM  
Re: Single Brett w. Sacch. = superattenuation?
Well that's not so bad....So far I haven't had a beer go below 1.004 or .005, and have yet to experience over-carbonation (with both cultured dregs and the lambic blend). I just wanted to ask because the way it's discussed in WIld Brews I figured super attenuation is down to about 1.000. I guess that's only in mixed cultures that have been aging over 2 or 3 years. Also each time I add slightly less priming sugar than usual (even though more than usual is required for proper CO2 levels) because I plan on aging a majority of my bug beers. I think I might try a blend of a neutral sacch. with b. lambicus.
Ryan
10/25/07 07:15 PM  
Re: Single Brett w. Sacch. = superattenuation?
So how long does one have to wait for Brett dregs in secondary?

This may sound ridiculous, but I took a gallon of pale ale, added 10 oz. of frozen raspberries and the dregs from 2 orvals, 1 Signature ale, and 1 Supplication...its been a couple of weeks and the thing is just a raspberry bomb!

no action yet.

BPotts
10/25/07 07:49 PM  
Re: Single Brett w. Sacch. = superattenuation?
How long till things noticeably start to happen or before it's ready?

They're most likely actively eating and reproducing, just not on a level great enough for visual confirmation just yet. You probably wont notice any rigurous action at all, after awhile you should see a film or pellicle forming over time, and then maybe some bubbling on the film. I'd say maybe in another 2 to 4 weeks you might notice this starting. Takes a bit of time for all those things to build up a noticeable cell count. I would at least wait 2-3 months before I even thought about bottling (just take some gravity readings for consistency.) You could let it sit as long as you want. I used fantome dregs (tossed strait in the primary with WY farmhouse ale yeast) over the summer and found the beer adequately funktified in 3 months. The gravity hovered around 1.004 or 5 or something for a bit before I dared bottle.

BPotts
10/25/07 07:57 PM  
Re: Single Brett w. Sacch. = superattenuation?
I also pitched some Fantome dregs, strait from the bottle, into the secondary with a beer that was brewed with a bunch of Tazo Passion (Jamaican Hibiscus) tea, and noticed the thin film forming after 3 or 4 weeks. Judging by what you wrote you probably pitched at least twice the size of culture so I would think you would have similar if not quicker results than that.
Ryan
10/25/07 09:16 PM  
Re: Single Brett w. Sacch. = superattenuation?
right on, thanks guys.

I guys I should have added that I tossed them in piece meal. sort of as I drank the beers over the span of about a week.

Hope that doesn't matter...I'm sure I introduced some o2 along the way.

BPotts
10/25/07 09:35 PM  
Re: Single Brett w. Sacch. = superattenuation?
A little o2 is fine, the bugs need some anyway.
 
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