Welcome to the homeBBBrew board!
Like the BBB, the homeBBBrew board is not a club, just a place to talk about making beer. Is there a swap you would like to see happen? If we can find a few others who have something similar then lets do it!

NO SPECIFIC REASON FOR THIS LINK...
I just really like the work levifunk is doing!

PASSWORD PROTECTION: READ THIS BEFORE POSTING!
YOUR BBB USERNAME AND PASSWORD WILL NOT WORK ON THIS BOARD! If you want to post, you need to read this.

HomeBBBrewBoard
HotLinks!
Brettanomyces Brewing
E-Symposium Transcript!

Trouble making Trappists?
Discover Liquid Candy Syrup!
See what color impact to expect from liquid candy.

Search for:
Author Replies
Dave I
11/15/07 02:38 PM  
Flanders/Oud Bruin Grist Bill Questions
First off, if I am doing an Oud Bruin Flanders Red/Rodenbach style with Munich and Vienna malts, should I add Pilsner Malt. If so, what would be the advantage or difference of using some Pils Malt in the mix as opposed to solely relying on Munich or a mix of Munich and Vienna Malts?

Second, how much of a difference does the grist make in sour ales? Does a Pils/Crystal malt Bruin taste dramatically different than a Vienna/Munich/Special-B/possibly-corn Bruin if they use the same yeast/bugs, or do the souring agents contribute the majority of the flavor over the course of the beers' development.

-Cheers

SteveG
11/15/07 03:55 PM  
Re: Flanders/Oud Bruin Grist Bill Questions
This isn't super scientific as replies go, but its my general observation that specifics of the grist have a hard time showing through when it comes to sour ales. My first OB was like 1.080 and mashed fairly hot. When it was completely fermented some time later it had no body or malt character! I wonder though if all the extra, harder to ferment material in there helped to sustain the bacteria over time. The beer came out pretty good - like 8 years later.

I have had judges comments on sour beers like "try adding Vienna malt to get more fig character". Personally I don't buy it.

Dave I
11/15/07 04:47 PM  
Re: Flanders/Oud Bruin Grist Bill Questions
Thanks SteveG. I am planning on trying back-to-back Old Bruins, one with the Rodenbach-style Munich & Vienna based grist and one with Pils and crystal malts. Mainly because I am curious how the two beers differ based on the grist and evolution of the Roeselare blend between the two batches, and also (I am kind of embarrassed to admit this) to see which one looks more aesthetically pleasing. I LOVE a deep, rich looking, burgandy red beer.

Do the CaraMalts add any residual sweetness or leave a dry-caramel character, leave any sort of body, or are they totally blown underneath the wild yeast/bacteria sourness and dryness?

Is it better to mash hot and add a lot of CaraMalts so there are sugars that, while unfermentable to the Sacch, will be available to the bacteria over the year+ of aging?

Or are you saying it doesn't matter at all, and just throw what sounds good in there, mash at whatever the heck I want, and the bugs will still do their work just the same?

-Cheers

BPotts
11/15/07 06:45 PM  
Re: Flanders/Oud Bruin Grist Bill Questions
I think most of the specialties are for color (for the most part) and pilsner is used because it's clean (besides carapils and such for dextrins and head retention). With that said, I also like to use a healthy amount of special B in my wild brews (or anything redish for that matter) besides munich and vienne
SAH
11/15/07 10:19 PM  
Re: Flanders/Oud Bruin Grist Bill Questions
<<besides munich and vienne>>

You dont like these in sour ales BPotts?

And what would be a "healthy amount" of Speical B in a Flanders Red/ Oud Bruin?

BPotts
11/16/07 09:33 AM  
Re: Flanders/Oud Bruin Grist Bill Questions
No they're fine, I just like special B. The color it provides is always nice. MAybe one pound or more on top of a 1/4 lb each of munich and vienne. Nothing crazy.
SteveG
11/16/07 10:35 AM  
Re: Flanders/Oud Bruin Grist Bill Questions
I have to admit, I use fun grains in my sour beers (mostly). I don't know why, it just feels right! But I don't generally expect to be all that cognizant of them come pouring time.
Dave I
11/16/07 01:02 PM  
Re: Flanders/Oud Bruin Grist Bill Questions
How does this sound for my complex Oud Bruin? I think my other one will just be Pilsner Malt, some CaraPils, 1/4 of Munich and Vienna, and between ~1 and 2 lbs. of Special B. Anyway, here is what I am thinking for my first batch, based of Jamil's recipe only bigger.

OG: 1.110

5.5 Gallons

32.2% (11.00 lbs.) Pilsner Malt

35.1% (12.00 lbs.) Vienna malt

1.8% (0.60 lbs.) Aromatic Malt

20.5% (7.00 lbs.) Munich Malt

3.5% (1.20 lbs.) CaraMunich

3.5% (1.20 lbs.) Special B

3.5% (1.20 lbs.) Wheat Malt

Hops

~1 to 2 oz. East Kent Goldings (or whatever is on hand) for 60 minutes

Yeast: A couple of packets of US-56 (or whatever it is called now) and Roeselare in the secondary. Ferment for a month then transfer another batch, plus more US-56, onto the yeast/bug cake for the mostly-Pilsner Oud Bruin with a similar high-gravity.

Let me know if there are any major problems (or minor ones for that matter) with something like that. I know they are more or less Flanders Barleywines, so I am very interested to hear any arguments for or against them.

-Cheers

Mike T
11/16/07 01:48 PM  
Re: Flanders/Oud Bruin Grist Bill Questions
I based my first Flanders Red recipe loosely on Jamilís, I thought the results were great.

No first hand experience, but I think you may have problems with such a high OG. Wild Brews suggests that lactic acid bacteria are inhibited completely from 8% abv up, your beer will be well over 10% by the time you add the bugs. Iíve had Brett beers this big turn out very well, but I doubt this beer will have much sourness.

Anyone ever sour such a big beer?

Dave I
11/16/07 02:14 PM  
Re: Flanders/Oud Bruin Grist Bill Questions
<<No first hand experience, but I think you may have problems with such a high OG. Wild Brews suggests that lactic acid bacteria are inhibited completely from 8% abv up>>

Thanks! I have read parts of Wild Brews, apparently missed that chapter. It would perhaps explain the lack of "Imperial Lambics" and lofty-labeled types of beer. If that is the case, I will stay around normal Flanders style gravity guidelines.

To add to Mike T's question, what is the ABV% limit for any of the wild yeast and bacteria?

-Cheers

BPotts
11/16/07 02:27 PM  
Re: Flanders/Oud Bruin Grist Bill Questions
I soured a very high gravity beer (1.13) using the WL Sour Blend. Still sitting but it's pretty tastey and tart.

Though, if you look down the board to the "lacto/pedio imperial flanders red" thread (or something to that effect), I relatively recently brewed a high gravity brew using a single sacch strain with lacto and pedio, around 10% abv. The resulting brew was very dry and alcoholic tasting, with zero acidity. Haven't tasted it in a couple of months so I'm hoping things have changed....maybe I'll taste in a bit and let you guys know what it's like now.

I brewed a flanders pale in the beginning of the summer with Fantome dregs that gave me a real nice flanders style flavor profile and sourness in very short time (3 months). Not exactly sure what the true souring agent is though 'cause it got very dry and is probably around 6.5-7% abv. If it's lacto than it's definitly a different strain than what wyeast carries.

Interestingly enough, wyeasts website has the alc. tolerance for their lacto at 9%, hmmm....

BPotts
11/16/07 02:32 PM  
Re: Flanders/Oud Bruin Grist Bill Questions
Dave- It's pretty high for bretts and pedio, WB states around 18% (though uncommon to go that high I guess)....my WL sour blend beer is probably around 12-15% at this point (haven't taken a reading in awhile).
SteveG
11/16/07 03:37 PM  
Re: Flanders/Oud Bruin Grist Bill Questions
My second all brett beer was within a few points of that, very happy with the results.
BPotts
11/16/07 07:35 PM  
Re: Flanders/Oud Bruin Grist Bill Questions
What was it, about 1.1 or so? How low did it go? I checked mine about an hour ago. Tastes great after the addition of inocculated oak chips from a pLambic, but I thought the gravity would be a bit lower. After the chips were added fermentation started again, but it's only gone down to about 1.049. C02 is still being produced, slowly, so I guess it's still going but it has slowed significantly. It was slightly carbonated. Although still sweet, it was balanced quite nicely with acidity and funky flavors. At 10.5% abv it's damn smooth too. Thinkin i might just bottle it up in a month if the gravity hasn't dropped any further.....

Also checked the gravity of "big red" with the pedio/lacto....hotness has dissapated greatly. Smelled pretty funky, but there was very little acidity. I'm gonna add a bit of the above beer to innoculate and add dregs from a couple of flanders pale ales and see how that works.

Baums
11/19/07 10:52 AM  
Re: Flanders/Oud Bruin Grist Bill Questions
I think you can acidify a 10% beer with acetic acid (from acetobacter or maybe brett, both of which need some oxygen to do it). But as Potts and others say, lactic may not be doable.
Ryan
11/19/07 11:05 AM  
Re: Flanders/Oud Bruin Grist Bill Questions
My sour that I made with Vinnie's wood chips goes through these periods of co2 production where I see positive pressure on the airlock and bubbles/foam islands on the surface, back to no co2 production and loss of these foam islands. Then a few weeks later, things start up again. It has been cycling like this for awhile now.

Dave I
11/19/07 11:29 AM  
Re: Flanders/Oud Bruin Grist Bill Questions
On the topic of high gravity beers with Roeselare Blend, or similar bacterial blends . . . Can you add the Roeselare Blend along with the primary yeast in a Barleywine so it sours as it ferments down until it gets to the ~8% and the Pedio stops working and the Sacch (in my case US-56 dry yeast) ferments it the rest of the way down? Or should I just keep the original gravity under 1.080 and save the funky barleywines for Brett or Lambic yeasts?

-Cheers

Dave I
11/19/07 11:39 AM  
Re: Flanders/Oud Bruin Grist Bill Questions
A continuation from that last post . . .

Couldn't I do something like use the Roeselare blend as the primary fermenter and then finish it off with US-56 or similar clean yeast? Or just entirely use the Roeselare Blend? Or would that screw everything up?

-Cheers

SteveG
11/19/07 12:46 PM  
Re: Flanders/Oud Bruin Grist Bill Questions
Dave - you really can't think of something like the Roeselare blend in those terms. A yeast that does its deed in a week will work in that capacity, but Roeselare blend will take months to really run its course. And when its done the cupboard will be a bit bare for a finishing yeast. I don't think you could look at it as a starter if it takes so long to really do its job. A finisher maybe.
Dave I
11/19/07 12:59 PM  
Re: Flanders/Oud Bruin Grist Bill Questions
<<A yeast that does its deed in a week will work in that capacity, but Roeselare blend will take months to really run its course.>>

I was asking more about using it as the primary fermenter instead of yeast and only using dry yeast if the Roeselare blend crapped out due to the high ABV%, maybe close to a year later. But it sounds like the Pedio would shut down leaving the other bugs active.

But since nobody else is doing this, I am kind of assuming that not fermenting with a normal yeast first is kind of a bad idea. Maybe it would be TOO sour, is that accurate?

<<And when its done the cupboard will be a bit bare for a finishing yeast. I don't think you could look at it as a starter if it takes so long to really do its job. A finisher maybe.>>

O.k., so I should just keep the ABV% below ~8% with the Roeselare?

-Cheers

SteveG
11/19/07 01:26 PM  
Re: Flanders/Oud Bruin Grist Bill Questions
I made an all-brett barley wine cause nobody had, I needed to know what would happen. My results support what youre saying about at least some of the bugs surviving. But much to my surprise it did not get real sour which appeared to be what Brett C. can do. When I made my all brett big beer I intentionally deprived it of O2 at pitching (during its development though it got plenty), that may have been a factor.

Anyway, if nobody else has gone there I say be the first. Someone has to take the step passed 8%! My barley wine (later to be known as "olde ale") went closer to 10%.

BPotts
11/19/07 06:11 PM  
Re: Flanders/Oud Bruin Grist Bill Questions
Dave- I think the pedio is one of things that will REMAIN active in higher alcohol percentages, given some time to let it do it's thing. That's why roselare needs time to sit, due to the bretts and pedio.

I have pitched several different blends in the primary with different results each time. You sometimes have to find things out on your own.

The super high grav brew was fermented in the primary with WL extra high gravity yeast and WL sour blend(blend of bretts and bacteria) and that got tart, but then I added cantillon bugs and chips inoccluated with dozens of unknown bugs, and now it's very tart. The wyeast lambic blend didn't get very tart, even after 10 or 11 months, but then since it's been bottled for 4 months, tartness has increased significantly. The imperial red fermented in the primary with a big nuetral yeast cake and pedio/lacto has not soured at all. The flanders pale ale fermented for the shortest amount of time had Fantome dregs (a blend of sacch, brett, and lacto, and probably other stuff) gave me a very sour beer in short time.

I think in the end there are a couple of key points (in my own homebrewing experience) no matter what you use. Although traditional lambic brewers shy from brewing in the spring and summer due to the over active bacterias, Ii think high temps are very necessary to sour small batches of homebrew (80's or 90's). Also, oxygenation. I've noticed the addition of o2 into my glass carboys after several months helps things keep active. Unlike sacch which works quickly, slow acting bretts and bacterias can benefit from a little o2 long after primary has finished.

Dave I
11/20/07 04:40 PM  
Re: Flanders/Oud Bruin Grist Bill Questions
I have been doing some reading on Flanders Reds. I found Raj B. Apte's article on Flanders Reds and he mentions:

<<High alcohol beers tend to age gracefully and seem rather immune to infection. Martin Lodahl's article in BT on Old and Stock Ales suggests that infections (sourness) may simply be untasteable underneath all that malt. Above 7.3 v%, there tends to be less sour flavor in the ales I've tried. Even Petrus Aged Pale, at 7.3 v%, is not very sour tasting (or has enough complexity to balance). De Dolle, which at one time got its yeast from Rodenbach, doesn't become very sour even after three years in the bottle (Speciaal 20). . . . Even though my house is rife with sour barm, my barleywines turn out quite sweet and malty. If this is the reason, then one way to control sour ale production is to brew, age and sour as desired, and finally add sugar to raise the gravity. By stopping the acid production, a smoother ale may result. I wonder if this is how Boon Marriage Parfait is done. My guess is that souring an 8% ale is not possible.>>

Any thoughts if the Roeselare Blend would work in a high-gravity beer that way? Just ferment something like JamilZ's recipe (~1.061) with a clean American yeast first, infect with the Roeselare blend, and then add sugar to something along the lines of some sort of Belgian Strong Ale? It sounds like the souring would be a long mid-step, but once the Roeselare Blend did its job (over the course of months) I could boost the gravity and retain the souring qualities of the bugs. Please comment if you have (un)successfully tried this.

If there is no reason this hypothetically couldn't work, I am thinking of making one Flanders Oud Bruin at normal gravity, and maybe making a second one just like it only adding sugar after it has fermented and soured. Provided I am convinced there is at least a chance it will work. If nothing else it sounds like an interesting experiment.

-Cheers

Al B
11/20/07 08:16 PM  
Re: Flanders/Oud Bruin Grist Bill Questions
Souring high gravity beers can work to a certain extent - that is once alcohol, specific gravity, and pH together become inhibitory to a specific bug. Lactobacilli is sensitive to higher alcohol, Pedio a bit more tolerable, Bretts quite tolerable.

You can do the method stated, or add souring bugs in the primary on a high gravity brew. Stille Nacht is fermented with Lacto - my hunch is right off with the yeast in the primary. That will be my plan this winter for a high gravity sour brew.

BPotts
11/21/07 12:38 AM  
Re: Flanders/Oud Bruin Grist Bill Questions
I suggest throwing it in the primary with the sacch. Wyeast suggests this for increased sourness. I suggest this because I have had success doing this twice (with the 1.13 mega sour brew and flanders pale). The only time I have not had any sourness in a high gravity with bugs in the primary was the imperial red, which had only lacto and pedio (no bretts) with a big ol' sacch yeast cake. I'm not sure if this was because of the brett being absent, an old package of pedio which I thought may work anyway but did not, fermenting too quick and getting too strong for lacto to work, or not fermenting very warm. I'm thinking it may probabaly be a bit of all those but who knows....

Anyway, the roselare contains bretts and bacterias so I'd throw it right in the primary, and try to ferment a bit warm.

raj
11/21/07 01:59 PM  
Re: Flanders/Oud Bruin Grist Bill Questions
I take it back: souring an 8% beer is quite possible. It just takes longer. I don't taste my sours until they are 2 years old. Then they are ready for aging.....

raj

 
Return to Forum

Post a Reply
Your Name:
Subject:
Message Body:


 
   
Username

Password

Around Bruges in 80 Beers: 2nd Edition

Around London in 80 Beers

Around Brussels in 80 Beers


Babblebelt contributors in attendance: