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Author Replies
SAH
11/27/07 12:20 AM  
Gose?
I'd like to add straight Pedio a couple days before adding either a german wheat or euro ale yeast to make a Gose, in the same way Jamil Z advises using Lacto and euro ale to make a Berliner Weisse. Does that make sense? Will it work? Can Pedio work in a short(ish) time frame the way Lacto does?

Or if someone has made a good Gose style beer I'd be happy to try something else. It will be my first time adding salt to a beer - I'm excited!

Thanks all,

Sorry this isn't a blegian style, bad form?

Al B
11/27/07 07:14 AM  
Re: Gose?
The Gose beer that I've had didn't really have a strong lactic sourness like a Berliner, but that's not to say not to do it. I think Gose has a bit more higher gravity than Berliner, so there should be enough opportunity for bacteria to give ya some acidity.

Hopefully you don't get to much diacetyl from the Pedio.

SAH
11/27/07 08:45 AM  
Re: Gose?
Al B,

I've heard varying reports from my reading that they were very sour and that they were not that sour. Do you think Pedio can work in the method I described? I had forgotten about the diacetyl, I remember Vinny's presentation now, is their anyway to minimize this or a better ale strain to clean it up?

Al B
11/27/07 09:12 AM  
Re: Gose?
I don't recommend that Protocol. Adding Pediococcus, a strict anaerobe, then adding yeast to a wort that is lacking oxygen would be backwards. I would aerate the wort, pith the yeast, once fermentation has begun - then you can add Pedio or add it to the secondary.

Another approach would be to add lactobacillus at the same time as you add the yeast (lacto is tolerant to O2). If the lacto is fresh, I would be confident there will be some acidity and less diacetyl. You can always add Pedio later - it may produce more acid than lacto anyway.

Don't forget the corriander ;)

SAH
11/27/07 09:27 AM  
Re: Gose?
I won't forget it Al B, thanks for the tips. I think I'll go with your first recommendation. This is the last time I will say this, or have this problem, I don't have Lacto solo. Ordering soon. I guess I could do another sour mash....

Lastly, how long should I expect the Pedio to take to finish?

SteveG
11/27/07 09:33 AM  
Re: Gose?
I made a few lagers last winter, within a couple months it became clear that the yeast cake I was reusing was contaminated with pedio. Dammit. A little sour, quite buttery.
Al B
11/27/07 09:37 AM  
Re: Gose?
That would depend on fermentation temperature and the level of sourness you want. Pedio doesn't produce CO2. So it will detemined by the amount of dextrins left over after fermentation. If the brew drops below a pH of 3, it should slow way down or be done.

If it is getting very sour, or more than you want, chill immediately.

Al B
11/27/07 09:40 AM  
Re: Gose?
Steve G is back in the House!

<<quite buttery>>

SAH
11/27/07 10:23 AM  
Re: Gose?
<<That would depend on fermentation temperature and the level of sourness you want. Pedio doesn't produce CO2. So it will detemined by the amount of dextrins left over after fermentation. If the brew drops below a pH of 3, it should slow way down or be done. If it is getting very sour, or more than you want, chill immediately>>

The recipe calls for 3638(B.Wheat)and fermented on the cool side, 62-68F. So not Pedio's happiest temps. Maybe once primary fermentation is complete I could raise the temp to encourage the Pedio, and the 3638 will be done. I may try the sour mash and some acid malt to help things along. That, along with a low mash temp should help to get things wrapped up fairly quickly with a good sourness? It doesn't have to be super sour, I just want to try the style and have some/noticeable sourness.

Al B
11/27/07 10:37 AM  
Re: Gose?
Well, that's another approach too - Sour mash incubated at a nice warm temp. + acid malt should give ya a nice tang. That will be a good starting point. You can measure the pH as you sour-mash if you have the time. I'm starting to get thirsty.
SteveG
11/27/07 10:47 AM  
Re: Gose?
Yep, back in town! Sorry the site was down for a couple days, the table crashed at a point where I could do nothing about it. Flip side, spam has greatly decreased. With all my efforts it might be the best way to deter spam is to play dead!!

Al, are you working this weekend?

Al B
11/27/07 11:05 AM  
Re: Gose?
Thats a big fat negative!

The Mild slurry is raging and waiting for a hand-off.

Sean White
11/27/07 11:59 AM  
Re: Gose?
SAH, I have never brewed a gose but I have tasted a commercially produced one, and I very much doubt that it was brewed with 3638 or any wheat yeast really (but of course I could be wrong.

It tasted more to me like a berlinner but with a very mellow acidity. The yeast profile was extremely clean, not clovey. If I were to formulate a recipe for this I would probably start with a fermentation technique very close to Jamil's berlinner technique with Lacto and Cali 001 (check out the podcast). Then I would adjust the grains, hops, and spicing to hit a gose, and add salt after fermentation.

SteveG
11/27/07 12:02 PM  
Re: Gose?
Al, Circa Friday?
SAH
11/27/07 12:12 PM  
Re: Gose?
<<SAH, I have never brewed a gose but I have tasted a commercially produced one, and I very much doubt that it was brewed with 3638 or any wheat yeast really (but of course I could be wrong.>>

I didn't like the choice either, seemed strange, but I have never used that yeast @ 62F. I imagine in the lower temps it is much more restrained. Maybe I'll pitch both 3638 and a neutral ale strain at the same time? I have listened to the Jamil BW podcast, good show.

SAH
11/27/07 12:18 PM  
Re: Gose?
Al B, thanks for the encouragement, that's good enough for me. So:

Sourness: Sour Mash + Acid Malt + Pedio

Yeast: 3638 + neutral ale yeast + Pedio(after 1-2 day/s)

Temp: 62-64F through primary, then up to mid-70's

Al B
11/27/07 12:40 PM  
Re: Gose?
The lower temps will help reduce the clove/banana from that yeast - not sure how much. I had done this with German wheat 3333 with good success. I agree with Sean to add a neutral yeast, too.

Captain -

Circa is the logical coordinate. I calculate a collision at 8:00..........Spock out.

SAH
11/27/07 01:02 PM  
Re: Gose?
Are you guys making secret plans in my thread?

;)

The coolest part of this is I have bottles with a very long slender neck to put this beer into....hope it turns out well. I'll be sure to update when its finished, brewing this weekend or sooner.

Like this:

(h t t p : / /)sinope.redjupiter.com/images/learn/blackbottleweb2.jpg

Al B
11/27/07 01:32 PM  
Re: Gose?
Circa tip - they have Allagash Fluxus and Ommegang Chocolate Indulgence on draft.
MarkO
11/27/07 05:38 PM  
Re: Gose?
What are you adding in terms of quantities/ratios of salt? I am just curious about gose: I have just had my first bottle ever in the last month, and have never really read a recipe.

SAH
11/27/07 06:29 PM  
Re: Gose?
<<What are you adding in terms of quantities/ratios of salt? I am just curious about gose: I have just had my first bottle ever in the last month, and have never really read a recipe.>>

Word on the street is that Radical Brewing's recipe is too little salt, BYO's recipe too much, and that 1oz in 5.5 gallons is about right. How salty was the one you tried?

SAH
11/29/07 11:38 PM  
Re: Gose?
<<Pedio doesn't produce CO2. >> - Al B

So what is bubbling out of my airlock when I just gave my Pedio starter a swirl?

Baums
11/30/07 10:16 AM  
Re: Gose?
Hate to say it but if your pedio starter is bubbling significantly, there's probably something other than pedio in it.

But, another possibility is that the atmospheric pressure, or temp, or whatever changed, resulting in a pressure difference, but that the airlock "stuck" until you swirled it. Many times I've noticed that my 3-piece airlock can kind of "stick" if the pressure difference is low enough and applied slowly enough, and then when you tap it, it releases a couple bubbles. Is it possible this is what happened?

What does the starter wort look like? How long ago did you make it? Did you pitch a pack of Wyeast pedio into it? What do the exiting bubbles smell like?

SAH
11/30/07 11:07 AM  
Re: Gose?
No its definitely bubbling, it's an 'S' style lock. The starter looks fine, clean. I pitched just the Pedio into the starter and followed all my proven(never had a contaminated starter) sanitazation methods except of course that I didn't aerate it. The Pedio seemed to be growing and collect on the bottom without any major airlock activity for ~2-3 days, then I gave it a swirl to get the Pedio on the bottom back into 'solution' and its been bubbling ever since. There are definite bubbles/froth forming on the top. The smell is fairly clean, definitely haven't smelled the particular smell before. I don't have it in front of me know, but the smell was not very strong. There are no obvious visual signs it is contaminated, I emailed Wyeast so hopefully they'll have a good answer. Have you, or anyone, made a pure Pedio starter from Wyeast? I'm going to be really disappointed if its infected and/or not Pedio in there.
Al B
11/30/07 12:26 PM  
Re: Gose?
If its pure Pediococcus (damnosus or cerevisae), there should be no gas produced. Similiar types of bacteria such as Oenococcus (Leuconostoc), Lactococcus, and Lactobacillus can produce gas depending on the species or strain.

SAH
11/30/07 03:16 PM  
Re: Gose?
I'm back home, and the smell is distinctly sour smelling, much the same way the empty package smelled after I pitched the Pedio but not as strong...smells very nice actually. I know you don't have much to work on, but what do you think happened? The package says "5733 P COCCUS 13NOV2007 " on it. Should I taste it when finished and see what it tastes like?
Al B
12/01/07 09:34 AM  
Re: Gose?
You can - Its entirely possible that some Oenococcus is in there OR the Pedio is a different strain. My culture of Oenococcus oennii from WY produced gas.
SAH
12/01/07 12:30 PM  
Re: Gose?
<<You can - Its entirely possible that some Oenococcus is in there OR the Pedio is a different strain. My culture of Oenococcus oennii from WY produced gas. >>

That's good to hear Al B(hopefully a different Pedio), let's hope Wyeast will let me know what's in the pack. I should have asked them why they have two 5733's, one cerevisiae and the other seemingly what I got. I hope its not Oenococcus, that's for malolactic fermentation in wine correct? Have you used it for beer? Are you saying its possible its Oenococcus because they may have mis-labeled/packaged it or that it is intentionally in there?

Al B
12/01/07 03:39 PM  
Re: Gose?
I don't know what the deal is with the two Pedios. Oenococcus is malo-lactic (converting malic to lactic acid in wine). I have used it in beer with good results - especially with cherries (and other fruits high in malic acid).
Baums
12/03/07 12:17 PM  
Re: Gose?
This sounds familiar.

As some of you know, a while back I bought "lactobacillus delbrueckii" from WY, which bubbled in the starter. This was strange because l. delbrueckii is homofermentive and thus should not bubble. I emailed back and forth with Wyeast (they were pretty helpful actually) and eventually they told me they were changing the labelling of their bacteria to just "lactobacillus" and "pediococcus." I was annoyed that I got a pack labelled l. delbrueckii that did not appear to be such, but also pleased that WY was using the new names that, while not as specific, appeared to be more accurate.

I am under this impression that any reference to "p. cerevesia" in WY literature is just from before that change, and that any new literature will just say "pediococcus." I'm not certain of it though.

Anyway now SAH has a "pediococcus" that is apparently producing gas. I do not *know* there are no pedio strains that produce gas, but what I have heard suggests they don't. Does anyone have a strong reference as to whether any pediococcus strain produces gas? Any microbiology manuals or anything?

Al B
12/03/07 12:38 PM  
Re: Gose?
<<Does anyone have a strong reference as to whether any pediococcus strain produces gas? >>

Yes, Bergey's Manual of Systematic Microbiology - which is the Microbiologist Bible. The genus Pediococcus do not produce gas.

Al Bacteria

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