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bharris
01/17/08 06:38 AM  
oud bruin bugs?
I'm looking to make an oud bruin sometime in the coming weeks and am looking for some recommendations for which bugs to pitch and when. So far all of the recipes that I have seen call for pitching a clean sachro for the primary ferment and then using roselare blend for a secondary fermentation. However, I can't get my hands on roselare. So far I am thinking:

Plan A: Primary ferment using US-05 sachro, then after a couple of days pitch the wyeast lambic blend 3278.

Plan B: Same primary ferment but pitch bret c and lacto seperately into the secondary.

Or......am I way off and lost with this idea for an oud bruin?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Al B
01/17/08 09:14 AM  
Re: oud bruin bugs?
Either plan can work, the roeselare blend most likely contains B. lambicus w/ bacteria. Knowing what you want in a flavor profile and knowing what bugs contribute will help ya decide. The WY lambic blend also contains B. brux -which to me is very horsey. WL B. claus. can be very fruity (pine-apple).
Baums
01/17/08 11:20 AM  
Re: oud bruin bugs?
One thing I really like in a sour beer, especially a dark one, is a certain fruity-sour aroma that I believe is ethyl lactate. To me, this is the smell that immediately says a beer is sour. (Not the same as various smells that only tell you there's brett in there, and not the acetic smell of La Folie either--though that's good also.)

As you probably know, ethyl lactate is produced by brett when there's lactic acid (and alcohol) around. I do not think brett produces significant amounts of lactic acid itself. Not only have I never seen any evidence that it does in any papers, but also I have never smelled ethyl lactate in beers that have brett but no lactic bacteria (Rainaert Flemish Wild Ale, Orval, homebrews, etc). It seems like you need both brett AND some source of lactic acid to get this aroma.

The brett is easy. Personally I've had success getting this aroma with WY b. lambicus (plus a source of lactic acid). Not sure about other strains--I've used some of them but not with a source of lactic acid. Maybe someone else can comment on those.

The lactic acid may be trickier. Based on my (just 2)experiences I would not expect WY lacto to produce much acid in the secondary or when pitched with the primary yeast. I HAVE gotten significant lactic from Roeselare, but I think there's pedio in there--so another option is to use WY pedio. Another option is to pre-ferment some wort with just lacto, and blend it back in later--some guy on here did well with (a LOT) of yogurt as a lacto source. You could also use pure lactic acid from the homebrew store, or if that doesn't feel right you could use sourmalt.

Since I don't know of a convenient strain of lacto I have confidence in (though I bet one exists), I think the best bets are the pedio or pure lactic acid or the sourmalt, depending on how much of a purist you want to be.

troy
01/17/08 11:46 AM  
Re: oud bruin bugs?
Is sourmalt the same as acid malt? How much sour malt would you use to accomplish sourness in the finished beer?

troy

Al B
01/17/08 11:52 AM  
Re: oud bruin bugs?
I once made an sour bruin without Pedio and without Brett. The Lactobacillus sp. produced gas + lactic acid. It continued to produce gas once bottled to the point of over-carbonation however. I really have never had a problem with Lacto when a brew is under-hopped, relatively low in gravity-alcohol, and warm fermented (70F). I'm trying to remember if it was WY strain or one I recultured from dregs - which would be a good alternative. Having Lacto survive and produce some tartness (i.e. Fantome) seems like a hardy strain to play with.

Ah well, when in doubt - add more bugs!

Hey Baums - ever try reculturing lacto from a Berliner dreg? There's a couple of 'em out there.

Baums
01/17/08 02:39 PM  
Re: oud bruin bugs?
I think I remember hearing a lot about how the Fantome lacto you recultured was very effective--I forgot about that one.

Haven't tried to culture from a Berliner. But I agree it would be really great to find that perfect lacto strain that works faster than pedio and doesn't produce diacetyl or ropes. Only reason I haven't gone looking for one is that I've had good (but kind of slow) luck with whatever's in the Roeselare.

If I go looking for one, I'll probably start in the Natural Health aisle with those acidophilus tablets. Cheap, easy, big quantities, and repeatable--if they work in the first place.

Al B
01/17/08 03:02 PM  
Re: oud bruin bugs?
Troy,

Yes, sourmalt is acid malt. I haven't used alot of it in a single recipe, perhaps 1 lb/5 gal ?

Baums
01/17/08 03:52 PM  
Re: oud bruin bugs?
Sorry troy missed your post. Yes, like Al said, acid malt-- but I don't know how much to use.
petecz
01/17/08 06:25 PM  
Re: oud bruin bugs?
I use between 5 and 10% by weight acid malt for my sours.

petecz

troy
01/17/08 11:01 PM  
Re: oud bruin bugs?
petecz, or anyone else with the knowledge,

how do you feel the acid malt compares to lactobacillus in your sour beers?

troy

bharris
01/18/08 01:37 AM  
Re: oud bruin bugs?
Thanks a bunch for lending some direction guys. I think that I am going to go with pedio and B. lambicus in the secondary and see how it goes. I also wanted to see what the opinions were for adding oak chips to this style. I have some that are soaked in burbon that I was thinking of adding. I think that a touch of a vanilla/oak presence underneath the malty sourness would be a nice touch.
Baums
01/18/08 10:26 AM  
Re: oud bruin bugs?
Troy,

I believe for most lacto strains that would be used for brewing, the only desirable thing they produce is lactic acid. Some strains also produce significant DMS, diacetyl, and other (for many people) negative compounds. Also some strains produce significant acetic acid (but if you want that, it's easy to get in other ways).

If this is the case, then as far as *taste and consistency* (as opposed to tradition and aesthetics) goes, I actually think adding pure lactic acid is "better" than adding lactobacillus. I do not have experience to back that up, because for other reasons I would rather use the lacto (or pedio). But I do think it's hard to deny, unless you know of some desirable compound that lacto can produce other than lactic acid.

"People say" that adding pure lactic acid to, say, a witbier, leads to a not-very-complex taste. But I have heard the exact same complaint about adding a strain of lacto that produces lactic acid and little else. I believe it is primarily the brett that takes lactic acid (from whatever source) and "makes it complex" via various reactions.

Not sure that's what you were trying to get at...

Baums

troy
01/18/08 10:48 AM  
Re: oud bruin bugs?
thanks Baums for the info. I have never fooled with alternative yeasts or bacteria in brewing so I am just trying to get an idea of what different ingredients do.

bharris, sorry for the hijack of this thread.

troy

 
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