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Author Replies
Trent
02/11/08 04:35 PM  
FG expectations with berliner yeast?
Gday everyone

I recently made a berliner with the new Wyeast 3191 (?) VSS yeast. I just pitched the package in without waiting too long for it to swell, but it had definitely started to swell. OG was 1032, and obviously my sanitation was up to scratch, as it took 4.5 days before I started to get any krausen at 18C/64F. It has been fermenting for a further 9 days after those first 4 days lag time, and still has a fair bit of krausen on top at ambient (75F). The current SG is 1004, making it around 3.7% already, plus priming sugar, which will put it up into the 4's! Not quite the 3% berliner I was hoping for. tastes quite nice and tart though.

Has anyone had any experience with this yeast yet? Is it attenuating so far because of the bret in it? Can I expect it to drop any further than this, or will it pull up somewhere around the 1004? I dont want to let it go any further, but as I will be bottling, I cant afford to artificially stop fermentation.

Thanks in advance for any advice

All the best

Trent

SteveG
02/11/08 04:39 PM  
Re: FG expectations with berliner yeast?
That's about where my last Berliner ended at, it was all brett.
Al B
02/11/08 09:13 PM  
Re: FG expectations with berliner yeast?
Seeing how its down to 1004, another point or two should not be a big deal. The low attenuation is both lacto + brett - mostly brett. On a side note is to add 2 pouches for whatever the volume brewed (as it took 4.5 days to krausen). On another side note, I wonder if a longer swelling time on the pouch would kick up more lactobacilli growth (particularly at a higher swell temperature). This would make a slightly more tart brew, but a tad less alcohol I would think (I'm sure Baums can comment more here!).

Anyway, I wouldn't fret too much (a recent commercial Berliner was up at 5%). Good luck.

Kevin
02/11/08 11:22 PM  
Re: FG expectations with berliner yeast?
I too got about a 1.004 from 1.030. I was a little nervous until 3 days later when I finally got some action in the carboy. Would it be worth bottle conditioning with a bit of the original mixture (as I saw a recent commercial example) or just add some sugar and let whatever is left chew on that?
BPotts
02/12/08 12:18 AM  
Re: FG expectations with berliner yeast?
I haven't check the grav on mine, haven't had a chance to transfer over to secondary yet.... but I'm surprised to hear it took so long for everyone's to kick off. Mine took off within 24 hours.
Mike T
02/12/08 09:09 AM  
Re: FG expectations with berliner yeast?
Mine is sitting at about 1.005 (from 1.032) as of last night. It hasnít dropped any in the two weeks it has been in secondary. The sourness is starting to come in a little, but it is still just barely tart (no where near even the most mild commercial Berliner I have had). Berlinerís are supposed to be very dry and very sour (so just let it do its thing), thus the traditional addition of the sweet flavored syrups.
Baums
02/12/08 10:04 AM  
Re: FG expectations with berliner yeast?
I agree with Al that it might be possible to get more lacto vs. yeast, by incubating the smacked pack at a higher temp (though you'd have to watch out for the yeast).

But, based on my experiences I'm skeptical that this lacto strain will create serious sourness anyway. I do think it might happen if the populations were very high--maybe attainable through repitching? Hope everyone who uses it will post their results (and hopefully my skepticism is misplaced).

SteveG
02/12/08 11:36 AM  
Re: FG expectations with berliner yeast?
Baums, in my experience is also that its pretty commom that the lacto presence fails to produce the desired sour level. That is to say this reflects my personal results as well as results of other Beliner attempts I've tasted. Steve
Trent
02/15/08 11:14 PM  
Re: FG expectations with berliner yeast?
Gday everyone

Thanks for the replies, good to hear that I am not the only one with a slow start, but funny that there were others that started quickly.

I racked mine to secondary after I read the other posts, so that is about 5 days ago. It wasnt OTT tart or anything, kinda mild, as others have pointed out, but the wife certainly didnt like it! Actually, I would have to call it moderately sour. My secondary is a glass carboy, and I am unfamiliar with bret, this is my first beer with it in it, so I just went to have a look. It is sitting at ambient (75F odd) and it has formed a pellicle of sorts. Does bret usually do this, or do I have some kind of pedio infection? It'll just sour it up a bit more if I do, I guess, but just wondered if this was usual, and if I should wait for the pellicle to disappear before bottling?

All the best

Trent

BPotts
02/16/08 10:19 AM  
Re: FG expectations with berliner yeast?
I'll be racking my first berliner today into secondary and brewing my Impy Berliner with the yeast, I'll check my gravity.....

Trent, yes the pellicle is normal with brett beers, and I don't think you necessarily have to wait for the pellicle to drop in order to bottle. At an SG of 1004, it's not gonna drop much further, and the pellicle will only help to prevent oxgyenation. Wyeast recommends 3-6 of aging for this blend (because of the brett), so I think after a couple of months as long as it tastes good I wouldn't worry about the whether the pellicle is there or not when bottling.

-B.

BPotts
02/16/08 11:27 AM  
Re: FG expectations with berliner yeast?
That's supposed to be "oxygenation", and "3-6 MONTHS..."
BPotts
02/17/08 09:18 PM  
Re: FG expectations with berliner yeast?
Racked to secondary tonight....SG was at 1009....smelled very bretty, and tasted very bretty, but really little to no sourness at all, very dissapointed to be frank. Doesn't taste much like a berliner, just a bretty ale. I guess i'll wait for the summer months to warm it up a bit before bottling, hopefully some acid will be build up after that.
BPotts
02/17/08 09:19 PM  
Re: FG expectations with berliner yeast?
BTW, brewed the double berliner and poured on the yeast cake....
tankdeer
02/19/08 11:54 AM  
Re: FG expectations with berliner yeast?
I ordered a pack of this yeast and will be giving it a go myself. It seems as though people are having mixed results, the most common being not sour enough. So I guess we'll see.

I am going to be doing a split batch with this blend in 5 gallons and a 3:1 lacto/sacch (per Kris England) blend in the rest. I'm looking forward to it. I think I'll end up doing 15 gallons. : )

DrunkenPanther
02/19/08 12:02 PM  
Re: FG expectations with berliner yeast?
My pack of this finally arrived today. Barring arrival of the baby before this weekend (and assuming I can get the strter up large enough), I will hopefully throw 15gal of this together. Prolly split it up into 3 5gal's and try something different in each.....

5g all berliner

5g berliner with acid blend or lacto later (if needed)

5g ?......hmmm any ideas?

Thinking of a simple grain bill for this one. Just a 60%/40% pils/wheat at 1.032

What else would be interesting to try with this?

tankdeer
02/19/08 01:11 PM  
Re: FG expectations with berliner yeast?
<<What else would be interesting to try with this?>>

If I end up doing 15 gallons I was thinking of doing 5 on top of some blueberry puree

Baums
02/19/08 01:58 PM  
Re: FG expectations with berliner yeast?
tankdeer, where are you getting a 3:1 lacto/sacch culture from?

(and... who is Kris England?)

tankdeer
02/19/08 02:56 PM  
Re: FG expectations with berliner yeast?
Kris England is a homebrewer (obviously) a BJCP Master Judge, and the BJCP Continuing Education Director. He posts frequenty on the Northern Brewer and MoreBeer forums under the screenname Mashweasel. He also writes for BYO (and I believe Zymurgy as well).

The 3:1 lacto/sacch ratio was discussed over on the Northern Brewer forums a few months ago. I will be growing the cultures up seperatly. I'm trying to find the thread, but am having problems at the moment.

But basically it will be:

50/50 pils/wheat

single decoction

no boil

mash hop for <5 ibus

aiming for 1.028-1.030

3:1 lacto/sacch (WY lacto D/WLP001)

because it's no boil and a very low OG I can do 15 gallons which will allow me to have a nice variety from a single brew session

Baums
02/19/08 03:03 PM  
Re: FG expectations with berliner yeast?
Thanks. Sounds interesting. Good luck--and let us know how it goes with growing up the WY lacto.
BPotts
02/19/08 05:20 PM  
Re: FG expectations with berliner yeast?
Besides sourness I'm dissapointed in general with the flavor profile of this yeast. The german ale strain just doesn't seem to be the right sacch strain - lots of cidery esters, musty - not really the light, phenolic wheaty/bready flavor that I've found in commercial berliner examples.
Brian Richards
02/21/08 08:43 PM  
Re: FG expectations with berliner yeast?
I had a pack of this in my new kegerator and my son must have found the dial on the back to adjust the temperature because I opened the door to grab a beer and noticed that everything had froze except for my higher gravity beers. My yeast pack was frozen but not entirely. It was a thick slushy feeling so I let it warm up in my fridge slowly and made a starter with it to make sure it was still good. I then learned that there is glycerin in the solution so I felt a little bit more at ease because my main concern was that my cells were bursting on my. The starter took off great and I pitched it in a 1.030 berliner last friday.

Question, did I throw my balance off of Saccro, Brett, Lacto that was originally in the package. I kept my starter warmer (like 72-74F) as to help the lacto development along. Any ideas what I might have in store. I tasted it the other day and like Mike T said, it is just barely tart. Granted it's only been going for a week.

Brian Richards
02/21/08 08:50 PM  
Re: FG expectations with berliner yeast?
Bpotts, how is the impy berliner coming along? I want to pitch something onto my yeast cake but I am not sure what. I was thinking of just doingsomething like

10lb Dingemans Belg Pils

2lbs flaked wheat

1lb aromatic.

something along the lines of a golden ale I guess. Might be nice. I have a ton of belgian pils I need to use up.

BPotts
02/21/08 11:14 PM  
Re: FG expectations with berliner yeast?
I used 70% pils, 30% malted wheat, with 1 lb. of flaked wheat to help head retention. 2 oz of tettnangers for bittering, no aroma/flavor hops. I was a bit worried when I came back the next day and there was little fermentation activity, just some Co2 bubbles on the surface, but the next day fermentation took off. Last night when I checked it had about a 5-6" krausen. I plan on letting it sit into the summer months to hopefully increase acidity a bit.
BPotts
02/21/08 11:17 PM  
Re: FG expectations with berliner yeast?
Oh yeah, OG was probably around 1.08 or so... should be nice and strong.
Trent
07/16/08 06:25 PM  
Re: FG expectations with berliner yeast?
Just thought that I would post, I finally got around to bottling this beer last night, and I am fairly happy with it overall. The FG dropped down to 1.000, and although as others have pointed out, it isnt all that sour (maybe reasonably tart), it actually tastes very nice, though not too much of the bready character of wheat, as BPotss already pointed out. Overall, it tastes like a nice bret beer. I'll probably use it again - I think leaving it for another 5 months after racking certainly helped give it a much more rounded flavour, and the fact it was fairly warm didnt hurt the acidity. Next time I will probably use a sour mash to start with.

All the best

Trent

 
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