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Author Replies
peteC
03/31/08 02:12 PM  
flavor profile of BrettC
Other than the classic reference to TommeArthurs MoBetta being a pineapple bomb (which it was, based on my tasting notes), how many folks have huge pineapple bombs of their own from BrettC?

I have a 2 month in primary (glass) 100% brettC beer that tastes nicely funky and citrus sour for certain. BUt no big pineapple. Fermentation was room temp for california in the winter ranging from probably 60-70F. No oxygen added at pitch. Decent sized starter though from 4 weeks of feedings to the WL strain.

cheers peteC

tankdeer
03/31/08 02:26 PM  
Re: flavor profile of BrettC
No pineapple here. Two 100% brett C beers under my belt.

A pale/blonde beer pitched a small starter, ~30 seconds of pure 02 (was told it increases acidity), pitched cool (~65) and fermented warm (~75). OG off memory was 1.057 range. Taste is nice, clean, some subtle spice. clove/pepper. little to no fruit, sour or funk. This is bottled but I've only tried a couple.

Oatmeal stout (1.055-ish) pitched onto about 2/3 of the slurry from the above beer. Fermented cooler (~68) and is currently in secondary at around ~70. Last taste FG was high (1.018) but taste was very nice. Roast/toast/bready, with a slight underlying tropical fruitiness coming through in the finish. I'll likely be bottling this in the next couple weeks.

I think I fermented the first one too hot and brought out the spicy phenols. I may be trying a wit with this strain as well in the next month or two (yet to be decided).

Al B
03/31/08 02:47 PM  
Re: flavor profile of BrettC
Big Pine-apple on both batches way back when. Sour as well. Not funky really. I'll be doing a batch with again for this Summer (Wit).

Cisco
03/31/08 03:33 PM  
Re: flavor profile of BrettC
I seem to always get more of an over all tropical fruitiness with a good amount of spiciness. I ferment at room temperature of 74F and oxygenate like a normal yeast strain.
peteC
03/31/08 04:03 PM  
Re: flavor profile of BrettC
AlB and cisco-

want to toss out the fermentationn details like if 100% primary brettC or just secondaried with, WL or WY strain, fermentation oxygen exposure (ie. glass, bucket, barrel), anything else you consider important that might impact pineapple versus other ester/acid formation?

thanks.peteC

tankdeer
03/31/08 04:04 PM  
Re: flavor profile of BrettC
<<I seem to always get more of an over all tropical fruitiness with a good amount of spiciness. I ferment at room temperature of 74F and oxygenate like a normal yeast strain.>>

That just about sums it up. Al, under what conditions were you getting pineapple? I'd really love to coax that outta the yeast.

Cisco
03/31/08 05:12 PM  
Re: flavor profile of BrettC
Fermentation details: White Labs Brett CL starter made and treated just like normal yeast with multiple feedings and some initial pure O2 and keep it on a stir plate for several days. I use the Bret CL as a primary fermenter and use a stainless steel conical fermenter. Upon pitching I also apply pure O2 for 1 to 2 minutes depending on the OG. The beer ferments out in about 4 days at 74F (allowed to ramp up to whatever it wants) and remains in the fermenter for two weeks. Then it is kegged and cold conditioned for several weeks before final bottling and kegging with force carbonation. I don't get pineapple bombs but I do get lots of tropical fruits and spiciness.
Al B
03/31/08 10:49 PM  
Re: flavor profile of BrettC
Large pitch after 3-4 weeks of propagation ~ 400ml slurry as the only fermenter. Oxygenation was minimal upon pitching due to high pitch rate and medium wort gravity. Temperature of fermentation was about 70F. Primary fermentation done in 2 maybe 3 days. High acid production giving way to pine-apple esters.

Cisco, did you ever get that clausenii beer from me after the brett swap?

Cisco
04/01/08 11:05 AM  
Re: flavor profile of BrettC
Yes Al I did drink that beer you sent me and it did have a big pineapple nose.

The differences in our brewing procedures are that I didn't over pitch and I fermented warmer.

peteC
04/01/08 04:13 PM  
Re: flavor profile of BrettC
AlB-

Did you ferment and secondary in glass?

If so, sounds like our beers should be similar in ester notes since I also did a neutral base beer with a large pitch from a long duration stir plate starter and no pure O2 at pitching.

My mention of no pineapple bomb for my beer is based on a winethief sample so no carbonation to really let the aromas loose. Perhaps they will really jump out once its chilled and carbonated.

cheers peteC

Al B
04/01/08 08:15 PM  
Re: flavor profile of BrettC
Yes, glass.

Some thoughts - its possible that if there's "citrus sour" after 2 months, then perhaps in 6 months esters (from )alcohol + acid will develop from the citrus acidity into pine-apple aroma/flavor. I think this is dependant on the size of the pitch. You won't need carbonation to know.

As Cisco said, I overpitched. This was done after reading an article (somewhere) on Brett brewing in that both Tomme + Vinne recommended a larger than normal pitch. This would then be consistent with Mo'betta (Tomme confirmed the pine-apple on our brett swap). We know that underpitching creates esters, so overpitching may also do this as well?

The lack of O2 may also minimize acetic acid from forming, although how much I don't know. To be honest, I thought the pine-apple/acidity was over-the-top by itself.

Cisco
04/01/08 09:45 PM  
Re: flavor profile of BrettC
Al - the pine-apple acidity was over the top but I disagree with the possible assumption of the lack of O2 minimizing acetic acid, based upon my experience using the normal amount of oxygenation as the required handling of normal sacc. and not getting the pine-apple effect. It's all still an educated crapshoot based on limited experience of members of this forum. Yet it is still fun to experiment!!
BPotts
04/02/08 10:30 AM  
Re: flavor profile of BrettC
I have some clausenii, along with some bruxellensis, bubbling away in a starter right now. I've aerated quite a bit - there's no bretty aroma at all coming out of the airlock, yet.... I hope to toss this in a beer this weekend if I can get around to brewing, so I'll up update on how things turn out for me. This will be my first all brett brew.
peteC
04/02/08 02:03 PM  
Re: flavor profile of BrettC
Good discussion gents.

My 100%brettC is still in primary after about 8 weeks now. It'll probably stay there another couple weeks then go to secondary for a month or two before being kegged up about May or June. Will report back then on pineapple development or not.

cheers.

tankdeer
04/02/08 02:19 PM  
Re: flavor profile of BrettC
Wow, that is some long fermentation for a brett primary beer. Mine was bottled after about 6 weeks and the 2nd is still in primary. Although I do plan on aging some of these for a long time in bottles (which is why I didn't keg), I don't generally think they take too long when brett is used as the primary fermenter. (I could be wrong)
peteC
04/02/08 06:42 PM  
Re: flavor profile of BrettC
The brettC doesn't neccessarily need that long.

Some is just inability to transfer it in terms of time and space and some is a desire to let the bugs do their thing with minimum touch.

My first 100% brett batch (lamb and brux), I left in primary for about that long also with no ill effects.

I haven't checked gravity even though I did pull a taste sample........it had dropped mostly clear after several weeks though. grainbill was about 30%pils, 30% wheat, 30% vienna and 10% acid. OG = 1.055.

pete

tankdeer
04/03/08 11:39 AM  
Re: flavor profile of BrettC
I wouldn't expect it to harm it as it could leaving a sacc beer in primary that long. Just didn't think it was necessary. But I know all about no the time/space issue. ;)
peteC
04/18/08 04:13 PM  
Re: flavor profile of BrettC
Lo and behold, somewhere between 2 and 4 weeks after adding the silicone stopper to my brettC beer (still in primary), the pellicle has appeared in full force.

still haven't racked it yet.....

peteC

tankdeer
04/18/08 05:06 PM  
Re: flavor profile of BrettC
Very interesting. I haven't got a pellicle on any of my brett primary beers.

I'm doing 10 gallons of Wit tomorrow; 5 of which I am going to primary with Claussenii.

SteveG
04/19/08 07:27 AM  
Re: flavor profile of BrettC
Of the 3 I've seen all the way through I've gotten pellicle once, an all clausinii - but not till after I added some lambicus for finishing. The other all clausiniis formed none at all.
BPotts
04/19/08 10:28 AM  
Re: flavor profile of BrettC
What's the oldest 100% brett beer that anyone has here? Is it really known that these things wont super attenuate over time, just more slowly than if you added healthy brett to the secondary? Maybe it just stops after the bulk of easily fermentable sugars have been consumed, but then VERY slowly continues to eat away over the years.....

It just seems that maybe all brett brewing hasn't been around long enough to fully understand how it works over extended periods of time

SteveG
04/19/08 04:36 PM  
Re: flavor profile of BrettC
<<It just seems that maybe all brett brewing hasn't been around long enough to fully understand how it works over extended periods of time>>

I think there is no question that is the case.

BPotts
04/19/08 04:53 PM  
Re: flavor profile of BrettC
On another brett C flavor note.....I just took a very small taste of my first brett c and brux blend beer, and it basically tastes like an IPA. The second beer I did with that yeast, a saison, is still finishing in primary and smells much more fruity. I added lacto to that. The third beer, which I brewed today, is a BGS...should be interesting to see how this one turns out. I'll be using the rest of the yeast cake from the first to ferment this (so there's no lacto)
BPotts
04/22/08 09:56 PM  
Re: flavor profile of BrettC
What kind of acid does brett c produce? acetic or lactic or both?
Baums
04/23/08 10:37 AM  
Re: flavor profile of BrettC
That is a terrific question Potts and one to which I don't think anyone really knows the answer.

Acetic--almost certainly but only to the extent that it gets oxygen.

Lactic--I think it's a big open question whether any brett produces lactic acid in significant amount. All the hard data I've ever seen says no, but that doesn't mean some brett don't under some conditions.

And here's another one. At least one strain of brett claussenii has been proven to produce very large amounts of citric (!) acid under conditions that if I recall, were not too far off from brewing. Whether this is really part of the great citric flavor in certain gueuzes, I don't know.

BPotts
04/24/08 08:22 AM  
Re: flavor profile of BrettC
citric acid? Huh, how 'bout that. I thought about citric acid but I figured "naaaah". Thanks for the response Buams. My last all brett C beer smells acetic out of the blowtube. I wonder if Steve's berliner was more lactic tasting?
Mike T
04/24/08 08:33 AM  
Re: flavor profile of BrettC
Citric acid makes sense, it is probably the source of the “pineapple” flavor that some people get from Brett C beers. I’ve never been able to get Brett C to do it for me though. Do you recall what the conditions that cause Brett C to produce citric acid in the experiments?
t,ankdeer
04/24/08 11:13 AM  
Re: flavor profile of BrettC
+1 to that.

I've got my 3rd all brett C beer going right now (a witbier); and if it's not too late, I think a citric acid character would be wonderful.

Baums
04/24/08 12:48 PM  
Re: flavor profile of BrettC
More info on brett and citric acid production:

http://ww2.babblebelt.com/newboard/thread.html?tid=1108752780&th=1179322740&pg=14&tpg=1&add=1

http://www.babblebelt.com/newboard/thread.html?tid=1108752780&th=1182795520&pg=13&tpg=1&add=1

I'm wary about jumping to conclusions about anything related to brett/pineapple/citric acid/gueuze for fear of adding to the list of "conventional wisdom" that turns out to be wrong. But, it certainly could be true and I think it's very interesting.

tankdeer
04/24/08 04:45 PM  
Re: flavor profile of BrettC
Interesting reads. Thanks. Still haven't gotten any citric/pineapple outta any of my claussenii batches. I think I need to try overpitching without any O2. See what that gets me.
BPotts
04/24/08 08:54 PM  
Re: flavor profile of BrettC
Thanks again for those links Baums... I particularly liked the end of the first thread ;o)
 
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