Welcome to the homeBBBrew board!
Like the BBB, the homeBBBrew board is not a club, just a place to talk about making beer. Is there a swap you would like to see happen? If we can find a few others who have something similar then lets do it!

NO SPECIFIC REASON FOR THIS LINK...
I just really like the work levifunk is doing!

PASSWORD PROTECTION: READ THIS BEFORE POSTING!
YOUR BBB USERNAME AND PASSWORD WILL NOT WORK ON THIS BOARD! If you want to post, you need to read this.

HomeBBBrewBoard
HotLinks!
Brettanomyces Brewing
E-Symposium Transcript!

Trouble making Trappists?
Discover Liquid Candy Syrup!
See what color impact to expect from liquid candy.

Search for:
Author Replies
Darel
04/01/08 09:23 PM  
Brett secondary Qs
After wild success with my saison secondaried on Brett brux I plan on two more brett secondaries this year - a Belgian Dark Strong secondaried with Brett lambicus and a Belgian Golden secondaried with Brett Claus. I have just a couple of questions about beinging out the "complimentary" flavors from the bretts. I thought the rich, dark fruit character of the BDS would match well with the tart cherry of the Brett L., so how do I ensure the brett L goes fruity on me, and not horsy? Similarly, with the Brett C in the BGS, I want to make sure the fruitiness complements the fruity, pear character of the BGS yeast. Anything I need to know about that? At this point int he game the beer will have already been primaried, so O2 is out of the question and we'll be dealing with a fairly high alcohol content. Should I pitch a significant starter or just sit back and let one package do its' thing over time? Anything else?

Thanks,

Darel

Cisco
04/01/08 09:38 PM  
Re: Brett secondary Qs
Using Brett L does not guarantee the cherry flavor and usually the flavor is evident at the beginning but fades as time progresses. I would recommend using the brett CL on the BDS which would nicely compliment the overall fruitiness. The Golden will also benefit from the brett CL. I recently fermented a Belgian Golden with brett CL as a primary fermenter. It came out wonderful. You really should try brett as a primary fermenter rather than a secondary, the results will astound you and it is way more controllable for aging.
SteveG
04/02/08 07:05 AM  
Re: Brett secondary Qs
Following up Cisco, one message I hope this board can convey to its users dabbling with brett is that its not like adding flavoring. I think there is plenty of perception to the contrary. The book on how to get a given effect from any form of brett is still being written, so far I personally have observed different bretts all producing a variety of effects. So, for example, if you want a cherry character you should really employ a more reliable means, like adding cherries or - if you're not brewed yet - possibly adding candy syrup for a sustained boil.

I will say that though the specific character of lambicus is a moving target, I have tasted many examples where it added something very nice to a beer.

Seanywonton (Sean White)
04/02/08 09:05 AM  
Re: Brett secondary Qs
Well, what are some ways of coaxing out some of the wonderful fruity esters from brett in secondary without getting too horsey?

I'm about to pitch some brett in 10 gallons of Belgian Ale that's currently at about 1.008 and 7% alcohol. Because of my setup, and not having a basement, this is going to have to hang out at room temp, 72 degrees.

I was planning on pitching the wyeast brett brux and leaving it for a month or 2 tops before bottling. I did a 1 quart starter from one packet of brett and now I'm crashing it to pitch the yeast. I don't want it to sit on the secondary yeast too long, especially when the weather gets warmer.

Last year I tried an Orval clone which smelled great in the secondary, but when the weather turned warmer, the brett went crazy, and I think there may have been some autolysis in the secondary, because the beer has a totally unpalatable rubbery/bandaid thing going on. So that's what I DON'T want this time around. Any advice would be apreciated.

BPotts
04/02/08 10:36 AM  
Re: Brett secondary Qs
Are you saying you secondaried the Orval clone like you plan to do with this new beer and the temps got too high so the sacch autolysed?

If autolysis is a problem just let it sit longer on the brett, it should eat that dead yeast up. Not sure how long it takes for it to do this though, I'm assuming awhile, after everything else is eaten up.

Baums
04/02/08 10:47 AM  
Re: Brett secondary Qs
"how do I ensure the brett L goes fruity on me, and not horsy?"

I promise this is the last time I'll say this--you have to specify whether you're using lambicus from Wyeast, White Labs, or somewhere else, because they aren't necessarily (are very unlikely to be) the same.

I've used Wyeast lambicus several times in secondary and always gotten the cherry pie flavor in 6-8 months. I've never used WLP lambicus but the common belief is it's extremely intense. The one beer I've tasted that had that strain in it (see other thread about WLP sour mix) was indeed overpowering in a medicinal way--of course that's far from proof that the strain is generally "bad."

Steve says "dabbling with brett is that its not like adding flavoring" and I agree to the extent that we're talking about a living thing that has to be managed into doing what we want. It's the exact same scenario as brewing a german hefe--adding Wyeast Hefe Yeast is not the same thing as adding banana extract and clove extract, and furthermore whatever banana/clove tastes you get may change over time.

But, I also Darel understands that and his question about "how to get that cherry pie flavor" is no less valid than a corresponding (and well understood) question about how to maximize banana with a weizen strain. The question of how to manage brett C so that it makes, or doesn't make, pineapple is of course a similar one as well.

I don't have a perfect answer to Darel's question but I can say I've gotten that flavor consistently with 70ish secondary fermentation, WY lambicus, pedio for lactic acid, in 5-6 percent red ale brewed with US-05 or other boring primary yeast. (Though I do wonder how much of that comes from the caramalts.) For me the cherry flavor does not age out that fast, but anyway there's another similarity with hefe yeast here--if you want the esters then just drink the beer before they fade...

BPotts
04/02/08 11:26 AM  
Re: Brett secondary Qs
I think Steve was saying that brett is unpredictable.... It is generally understood how to get sacch strains to do what one wants, it's well documented and easy to try in practice. With all brett beer and brett in general, no one knows exactly how to coax it do what one wants like a normal sacch yeast. I think people have results all over the map at the same temps/oxygen levels/pitch rates. There are general profiles of these yeasts, and multiple other variables as well, but for whatever reason it seems bretts don't always follow the strait and narrow path that sacch does.
Seanywonton (Sean White)
04/02/08 01:39 PM  
Re: Brett secondary Qs
Bpotts said: " Are you saying you secondaried the Orval clone like you plan to do with this new beer and the temps got too high so the sacch autolysed?"

I really can't say for sure if the bad flavor was from the brett or from autolysis, but it was really not pleasant!

At first I thought it was horsey or medicinal brett flavor, but it was really more like band-aid or rubber. I think this beer got pretty warm during last summer and stayed in the secondary for 3 months on brett.

So my new plan is a shorter time in the secondary at 72, and to really try not to let it go too long or get any hotter. Does this sound OK? Will brett brux get too horsey or wild at this temp?

SteveG
04/02/08 01:46 PM  
Re: Brett secondary Qs
Ben's right, I have seen great buy difficult to predict results from brett. My current goal is to make a few that turn out as intended. I will say about coaxing fruity flavors, I think this is more likely when using brett as the primary fermentor. It starts being real interesting when it really gets going - which is no what happens when used as a finisher.
Baums
04/02/08 03:05 PM  
Re: Brett secondary Qs
I think we're all saying the same thing. It probably IS possible to handle brett (even in primary) in such a way that you generally get what you want out of it, but right now it's not known how to do it. People get wildly different results and this may be due to variables we don't normally consider carefully (ferulic acid content in malt, specific propagation details, etc).

It'll take a long time too, since nobody (and certainly not me) seems to be sticking with one strain and varying one small thing at a time, or splitting batches. Though it does sound like Cisco is doing some of that.

Cisco
04/02/08 03:54 PM  
Re: Brett secondary Qs
<<Though it does sound like Cisco is doing some of that.>>

I have had consistent results with my last three batches primaried with brett CL. I treat it just like a regular Belgian yeast strain. Also my little brewing group Los Cebadartistas just finished fermenting a Belgian Blonde in a 55 gallon Brandy barrel with brett CL and had the same results as I do with my personal brewing. We then made a Belgian Tripel and dumped it in the Brandy barrel right on top of the brett CL dregs. It has been fermenting for two now and already shows the consistent esters and flavors of tropical fruits and spicenss although it was still too sweet at 28SG. We'll probably age it for 4 to 6 months in the barrel depending on the brandy/oak character that we want infused.

Cisco
04/02/08 05:13 PM  
Re: Brett secondary Qs
I left out a word - "It has been fermenting for two WEEKS now"
SteveG
04/02/08 05:20 PM  
Re: Brett secondary Qs
Actually I should say that I have been doing a decent job at hitting goals. The first Berliner surprised me, I expected to have to blend. But it did come out a pretty convincing Berliner which was my best case scenario, so that worked. And my 3rd beer was also ballpark as far as my intentions. I was motivated by Als "Silence of the Lambicus", "On the Lam" came out similar in more ways than not. I never really knew what to expect from the olde ale, I just wanted to see what would happen with a lot of gravity. So, no predictions met there! But so far 2 out of 3 were well within intended profile.
Darel
04/02/08 08:36 PM  
Re: Brett secondary Qs
Thanks guys. I appreciate the feedback. I just seem to remember a while back on this board a LOT of brett experiments going on along exactly this vein (what happens with o2 vs. no O2 and whatnot) but I had a hard time finding them in the archives. After having read several books on the subject including Wild Brews and a couple microbiology textbooks (Brewing Microbiology et al) it seems no one even wants to venture a guess. So, I suppose if a few batches turned out well for you guys I'll be doing both beers around 70ish, and using the WYeast lambicus strain.

One more question remains - I know if using Brett as a primary fermenter you need a big starter, but is the same true in secondary or is one vial + time enough?

Has anyone noticed a flavor difference when pitching large vs. small quantities? Both of these beers will be high alcohol and therefore the yeast willhave a lot of osmotic stress which could lead to off-flavors. Thoughts?

Thanks again!

Darel

Ryan
04/03/08 07:33 AM  
Re: Brett secondary Qs
I'd like to add to Darel's Q (though for the record Darel, no you don't need a huge starter going into secondary. It'll be in there long enough to take care of things with a smaller volume (ca. 5 mls for 5 gallons?).

Why the differences in flavor/aroma profile when the same strain of Brett is used as the sole primary fermenting agent vs. when its used in secondary?

Cisco
04/03/08 09:22 AM  
Re: Brett secondary Qs
"Why the differences in flavor/aroma profile when the same strain of Brett is used as the sole primary fermenting agent vs. when its used in secondary?"

That's the one big mystery we are trying to solve!!!

SteveG
04/03/08 10:10 AM  
Re: Brett secondary Qs
Why wouldn't there be a difference? Isn't the same true of conventional yeast? The yeast that is invited to the big party gets lots of gravity to play with, with that it has enough activity to really express itself. Add that same yeast as clean up after a beer's character is established and all it will do is make bubbles. I think a brett finishing yeast will have more impact on the final product than regular yeast just cause it attenuates so well, it will be able to use the little left in a finished beer far better. Really its the same with people. If you have a morning of hard physical labour ahead of you, would your performance be different if you had a full breakfast than if you just had a few raisins?
Seanywonton (Sean White)
04/03/08 10:36 AM  
Re: Brett secondary Qs
Guys, I realize this thread was started by Darel but I think I had a pretty basic and important question too. Namely:

What are the proper conditions (pitching rates, time and temperature)for getting brett brux to work in the secondary without going too wild and horsey?

Is there anyone who could help me with this question? If not, I will try to consult some pro brewers or just go for it and hopefully not F- it up.

Thanks

Sean

BPotts
04/03/08 11:10 AM  
Re: Brett secondary Qs
I think it has a lot to do with residual sugars, the more there is the more the brett will work and the more horsey it will be. I'd keep temperatures as low as you can to keep the activity minimal, but if you can't, you can't. Pitching rates out of the vial are already lower than normal, they're made for secondary use, but with sacch the more yeast the cleaner the beer, so maybe the same is true for brett? You could always kill the brett (I think people have used metabisulfite, heating, crash cooling) if it seems it's getting too strong - people seem to have some luck with that, but I've never tried.

If you're worried about horsiness why even use brux., why not lambicus or clausenii?

Seanywonton (Sean White)
04/03/08 11:51 AM  
Re: Brett secondary Qs
Thanks, that does help. This beer got fairly dry, 1.008, so I think that should help keep the brett more in check than last time. I do like the brett brux profile, or whatever you consider Orval to be. I think the bad flavors last time were from how I handled it, not the strain of brett. Last time I used Orval dregs, but this time I went with a commercial isolate.
BPotts
04/03/08 01:03 PM  
Re: Brett secondary Qs
That's fairly dry. Just out of curiosity, what was the FG of the first beer?

I've only used it in combination with other bretts/bugs. So I'm not sure how the commercial version works on its own.

Good luck!

Seanywonton (Sean White)
04/03/08 02:42 PM  
Re: Brett secondary Qs
The first beer, meaning the Orval clone, was at 1.013 before the brett sarted in on it. The fermentation wasn't visible until my room really warmed up in June. I had dry-hopped and was planning to bottle when I just noticed it taking off again. It got down to 1.007 aver the next few weeks but then the funky rubbery flavor was there.
SteveG
04/03/08 04:28 PM  
Re: Brett secondary Qs
I think 1.008 sounds like a good starting point. I've pitched finishing brett at 1.007 and liked the results, though I admit I have no personal experience with brux. By all that same logic, 1.013 sounds like a high gravity to pitch finishing brett.
Al B
04/03/08 11:06 PM  
Re: Brett secondary Qs
Orval uses a small amount of B. brux at bottling. I'd have to look it up how much they used, but in essence, the variables to factor in is population, SG, and time (because brett beers continue to evolve). That is why it is difficult to determine. Regular brews with Sacch. stop at some point. Bretts can continue to ferment beyond typical measuring points. They also act different (metabolism) with O2 than without (as per Vinnie).

My advice for secondary or bottling with bretts is to use a small amount at the dryest SG possible for avoiding over-carb. (if bottling). I have added a mere 10ml of Fantome brett in a saison at very low FG(1.003), the brett is more expressive than lambics I have (fantastic). Time will tell is a perfect cliche here. But I am sure that over enough time, it will taste like an older Orval (horsey) regardless.

BPotts - the Saison spiked with Fantome, would you say that is lesser of a barnyard animal than bruxellensis? Maybe in between lambicus + brux?

Al Brussels

Seanywonton (Sean White)
04/04/08 08:36 AM  
Re: Brett secondary Qs
I went for it last night! Pitched the brett. I think it's going to turn out great. Oddly, I already saw some action in the fermentor. I'm not sure if it's just the brett finishing up the small amount of sugars left in the starter wort, or if it's already going to work on the fermented beer.

You can check out the whole post here on my blog if you like:

seanywonton.blogspot.com

BPotts
04/04/08 09:47 AM  
Re: Brett secondary Qs
Al, that's amazing you added the brett AT 1.003. I don't know what it tasted like originally but it was pretty bretty for only having .003 of sugars left....

I would say it's less horsey than brux. It was also quite fruity.... and the level of acidity was spot on. How long was that secondaried with the brett and how long has it been in the bottle? For real, it was like drinking an authentic Fantome, just slightly brettier. I really liked it.

I couldn't resist trying the FRed either ;) ....another tastey effort....

Narvin
04/04/08 02:39 PM  
Re: Brett secondary Qs
I agree that your FG for pitching Brett was a little high. From the calculations I did, I approximated that Orval pitches Brett somewhere around 1.005-1.007, and it gets down to 1.003.
Al B
04/04/08 02:44 PM  
Re: Brett secondary Qs
Thanks Ben,

Correction, the FG was 1.008. It was added to the secondary for 3 weeks then bottled with corn sugar last year - 4/13/07. Started off fruity, over a few months in the bottle gained some barn and seemed to have stabilized. I pull one out every couple of months.

I now think that a 100% Fantome brett isolate brew needs to be done this Summer.

BPotts
04/04/08 03:50 PM  
Re: Brett secondary Qs
So it took only three weeks to get down to 1.003 or did you check after some time in the bottle?

Seemed stable for almost a year in the bottle - it was highly carbonated but not too much, just fine for a saison.

I definitly encourage you to try the 100% Fantome Brett brew...

Al B
04/04/08 05:38 PM  
Re: Brett secondary Qs
<<So it took only three weeks to get down to 1.003 or did you check after some time in the bottle?>>

It went from 1010 to 1008 during those 3 weeks, I felt somewhat safe to bottle at that point. I don't know what it is right now (the 1003 was a different brew). Yeah, I'll do a split batch of a saison - half w/ a saison yeast blend I'm putting together, the other 100% brett a la Fantome.

BPotts
04/04/08 06:23 PM  
Re: Brett secondary Qs
Ah ha, .003 was a different brew all together.

Cool, keep us updated as always.

 
Return to Forum

Post a Reply
Your Name:
Subject:
Message Body:


 
   
Username

Password

Around Bruges in 80 Beers: 2nd Edition

Around London in 80 Beers

Around Brussels in 80 Beers


Babblebelt contributors in attendance: