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EWW
04/04/08 02:18 PM  
Rasperries in a Flanders...how much?
I'm thinking about putting some raspberries into a portion of a flanders ale (to make a frambruin) that I have going (it's close to 9 months old now), and I'm wondering how many lbs/gallon people here would recommend. I'm looking to get a subtle raspberry flavor and some tannin complexity from the seeds. Would 1lb/1gal be enough or in or opinion should I use more like they do in lambics (i.e. 1.5-4lbs/gal as suggested by the Cult of the Biohazard Lambic Brewers website)?
SteveG
04/04/08 04:05 PM  
Re: Rasperries in a Flanders...how much?
Have you priced out raspberries? What will a pound run you?
EWW
04/04/08 04:39 PM  
Re: Rasperries in a Flanders...how much?
On special this week at local Kroger...$3/10oz frozen organic raspeberries (no chem or sugar added).
peteC
04/04/08 04:54 PM  
Re: Rasperries in a Flanders...how much?
My only experience is mead. I used 9 lbs to 5 gallons of mead. Very noticeable rasberry flavor, color, nose, and tartness.

rasberries are very strong flavored for fruit. Much more so than cherries and strawberries and bluebeerries. So you get lots of flavor for less total fruit with rasberries (and blackberries).

Tannin complexity I didn't notice.....

A guess based on what you want and my experience, maybe a pound per gallon...... More than 2 lbs and its hugely rasberry.

peteC

EWW
04/04/08 05:25 PM  
Re: Rasperries in a Flanders...how much?
peteC, that's exactly what I was thinking before I saw that even Boon uses 1.67lbs/gal in their Lambic...chart is from Cult of the Biohazard Lambic Brewers website:

Brewer Fruit Amount (lb/gal)

Boon (8) Kriek 1.67

Framboise 1.67

Mariage Parfait (all) 2.0

Cantillon (15) Kriek 2.0

Lindemans (16) Kriek 1.7

Framboise 3.8

Peche 3.4

I'm not afraid to stabilize and sweeten later if needed if it gets too tart with the berries, I'm just attempting to get the flavor right.

From what I understand the tannin complexity comes from many months of the beer sitting on the seeds in the berries, but that could be an old wives tale for all I know.

BPotts
04/04/08 06:25 PM  
Re: Rasperries in a Flanders...how much?
I've read that about seeds/pits as well EWW.
EWW
04/04/08 07:37 PM  
Re: Rasperries in a Flanders...how much?
Just remembered that Mike T did something like this with his batch with the blend. After reading his blog and his latest tasting notes I think I'll go with something in the range of 2-3lbs/gal.
SteveG
04/05/08 07:42 AM  
Re: Rasperries in a Flanders...how much?
You may find the effect of the fruit is greater when using frozen. I've made beer using fresh cherries and cherries that I'ave frozen first. When I thaw the bag I get a decent amount of juice which I think accounts for it. My prediction would be that by using frozen berries you can use less.
Ryan
04/05/08 08:38 AM  
Re: Rasperries in a Flanders...how much?
Man I used 10 oz/ gallon of frozen raspberries and it was pretty friggin' overpowering.

It may mellow with time and the action of the Brett, but after a year the last I had was still pretty dominant.

EWW
04/05/08 06:37 PM  
Re: Rasperries in a Flanders...how much?
SteveG, what's your logic in fruit having a greater impact on the falvor when it's been frozen? From what I understand it just ruptures the cell walls and makes the sugar more available for the microbs. However, considering that I plan to give it 4-6+ months on the fruit I don't see that making much of a difference...I could be wrong, but what's your logic? I'm not being defensive, just attempting to understand your post.

Ryan, what are the details (i.e. grain, process, and bugs) on this beer that you that you mentioned? I'm curious, was it a brett only beer?

SteveG
04/05/08 07:22 PM  
Re: Rasperries in a Flanders...how much?
EWW, no prob. I've used frozen and fresh and gotten more impact from frozen. I don't have an explaination beyond my own observations. I don't know if either of these examples really track, but apples get sweeter as the season gets colder. And I think German Eiswine is made from grapes that have been at least partially frozen and its the big sweet one of the German wine line up. Anyway, my personal experience is actually with cherries not raspberries, so that should be taken into consideration.

In fact, I once took a bag of cherries I picked and pitted out of the freezer. When it thawed I had enough cherries for a big pie plus about 10 ounces of juice. I poured the juice into a flanders red and got the best cherry flavor I've ever gotten in a beer - and I have used fresh for months. Amazingly, the pie came out great too. I don't get how they could loose all that juice and still work in a pie, but they did.

Mike T
04/07/08 11:21 AM  
Re: Rasperries in a Flanders...how much?
Mine was 4 lbs of blackberries in 2.5 gallons of Flanders Red for about 4 months. I bought the berries at a local farmers market, washed and froze them overnight, then defrosted them the next day and racked the beer onto them. While blackberries are assertive, the flavor isnít as distinct as raspberries, so it is harder to pick out what is from beer and what is from berries. The last bottle I had was great at 2 months in the bottle, but I canít wait to see how it ages.

I have read that freezing is more critical in a clean beer because regular brewerís yeast canít eat through the cell walls like wild yeast and bacteria can, but I figure why not give them a hand and speed things up. One strategy that a great local lambic brewer told me was to add massive amounts of fruit to a small portion of the beer, then blend to taste after it ferments out. This way you get just the right level of fruit without the risk.

This summer I am splitting a batch of Lambic with a couple of interesting fruits, blueberries, pomegranates, and wine grapes being the three interesting ones. I am also planning on adding pluots to half of my Flanders Pale, ala Russian River Compunction. Iíll be freezing/defrosting all the fruit before adding them to the beers, and in the case of the pluots Iíll probably quarter them and take out the pit.

Al B
04/07/08 11:33 AM  
Re: Rasperries in a Flanders...how much?
I'll be blending some lambics this year as well - half gueuzy, the other half w/ fruit. Apple cider comes to mind, muscat grapes possibly, strawberry-rubarb (maybe I'll stick with the pie on that one).
Ryan
04/07/08 06:37 PM  
Re: Rasperries in a Flanders...how much?
EWW

Mine was a lightly hopped pale ale that I made with my homegrown hops. I then took a gallon of that and dropped in the 10 oz. of frozen raspberries and B. lambicus.

SteveG
04/08/08 07:08 AM  
Re: Rasperries in a Flanders...how much?
Mike - blending like that does sound like great advice. Does the local lambic guy go by the name "Dave"?
Mike T
04/08/08 09:47 AM  
Re: Rasperries in a Flanders...how much?
Yes sir, AHA homebrewer of the year Dave Pyle, a savant of lambic brewing. Every once in a while he drops a bit of his amazing knowledge on me, and man are his Lambics good. I'm really looking forward to going over to his place in a couple of weeks as part of a BJCP prep class to get a lecture from him and Becky on brewing sour ales.
SteveG
04/08/08 10:05 AM  
Re: Rasperries in a Flanders...how much?
Great guy, one of my best BURP buds. The best piece of advice I ever got from him was not to stick to all sour cherries when making kreik but use half sweet. Totally in conflict with everything I had ever read. Same day he told me that (at a BURP picnic) the wife went out to pick cherries. There was an Eastern European woman there picking as well, she tasted one and said, "Ack, European sour cherries are nowhere near this sour"! Clearly a higher power wanted me to change my kreik-making ways!!
EWW
04/08/08 10:09 AM  
Re: Rasperries in a Flanders...how much?
Mike T, blending sounds like good solid advice. I have 8 gallons of a younger Flanders style ale going and plan to brew up a few more batches this year since the blend is back out, so I'm thinking I'll go with 2lbs/gallon and blend later on down the road if need be. Thanks for all the help! I'll try to keep everyone updated on this as time progresses.
EWW
10/26/08 01:22 PM  
Re: Rasperries in a Flanders...how much?
Just thought I'd bring this thread back from the dead.

I ended up adding 2#/gallon and have let it sit on the berries since the middle of april. Pulled a sample this morning and the raspberry flavor is just perfect, but the beer it's self is so mouth puckering sour.

Although I had initially thought about blending when I started this project I'm thinking that I may want to back sweeten it a bit to balance it out and retain the raspberry flavor as is. Is there a standard procedure to do this with sours that people use? The way I'm thinking right now is that I could sorbate/sulfate it like it were a mead and then sweeten or I could add a non fermentable sweetener to it as is. Do the masses prefer one method over another? Thanks in advance.

Baums
10/27/08 10:49 AM  
Re: Rasperries in a Flanders...how much?
Another idea is to reduce the sourness using eggshells (or CaCO3 if you don't want to restrict yourself to 18th century methods). Somebody here did this and it worked. MarkO maybe?

petec
10/27/08 12:24 PM  
Re: Rasperries in a Flanders...how much?
My buddy who added blueberries to a sour brown ale had it go intensely sour too - very acetic.

He is trying the egg shell route. Might have started it a week or two ago.

petec

EWW
10/27/08 01:32 PM  
Re: Rasperries in a Flanders...how much?
I have to admit I am no familiar with the eggshells/CaCO3 method. Can someone explain it in greater depth or point me to a resource please. Thanks!
Baums
10/28/08 09:46 AM  
Re: Rasperries in a Flanders...how much?
Here you go: http://www.babblebelt.com/newboard/thread.html?tid=1108752780&th=1208531897&pg=&tpg=1#1208538388

EWW
10/28/08 02:39 PM  
Re: Rasperries in a Flanders...how much?
Thanks for the link...that was a great read. However, my sourness is not due to acetic acid. I get little to no vinegar notes (should have included this tidbit earlier).

Although I'm no expert I think it may be a result of the high citric and malic acid content in the berries. My working theory is that the Pedio waged a full out war on the raspberries' natural malic acid and converted it to lactic acid resulting in an interplay with the natural citric acid that produces the mouth puckering sourness. This is solely conjecture at this point, but it seems to make logical sense to me.

Through that mouth puckering sourness I get a great berry flavor that I am afraid I will loose if I blend with a younger flanders. What I'm not sure of is what the best method is to tame the sourness and leave the berry flavor as is.

 
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