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Author Replies
Frank Reitz
04/09/08 04:02 PM  
Pannepot ingredients
Hi all

I am really interested in learning some details about De Struise Pannepot ale.

So, my question is: Does anyone here know

1. Do they really use dry yeast (Lesaffre) and which strain?

2. Do they use real coffee and chocolate?

Thanks

/Frank

tankdeer
04/09/08 04:34 PM  
Re: Pannepot ingredients
I would be interested in this as well as I am unable to get my hands on this beer so far.

Have you listened to The Brewing Network episode from a few weeks ago? Carlo and Urbain from De Struise were on live from Belgium and it was a fantastic show. Very informative. I recommend that as your first step.

Secondly, you can try contacting either one of them. I know they are both fairly open and communicative with brewers. They are both registered on the BN forums, so you may be able to contact them that way.

By all means, share your results. I think a lot of people will be interested in this.

Ryan
04/09/08 04:47 PM  
Re: Pannepot ingredients
Another suggestion is to check out Sean Paxton's website

homebrewchef.com/DeStruisePaxtonArchaicbeerCollaboration.html

He has a recipe posted that is a collaborative effort with De Struise called archaic. Looks delicous, and uses dregs from panepot. I'll be brewing this one next week.

Frank Reitz
04/09/08 04:51 PM  
Re: Pannepot
Being stopped by BBB spamfilter all the time. Tried all your suggestions except the BN forum.

Also check out their site for detailed information on their beers

/Frank

Brian Richards
04/10/08 01:55 AM  
Re: Pannepot ingredients
Ryan, I am going to be brewing this within the next two weeks as well. I will be making one change though. I'm going to use Dingeman's Belg. Pilsner rather than the pale just because I have it and I can't afford a 55lb bag of grain right now without the wife killing me. Just looking at that recipe makes me salivate. Let us know how this goes for you and I'll do the same. As for the Pannepot ingredients, I would just ask Urbain or Carlo via the BN forums. They are pretty nice guys and very open with their brewing knowledge. That WAS a great interview with them. 6+ hours long and it kept my attention the whole time.
SteveG
04/10/08 06:58 AM  
Re: Pannepot ingredients
Frank, what are you doing that's getting flagged? The simple username/password thing has worked so well I should probably have started allowing URLs a while ago.
Frank Reitz
04/10/08 09:27 AM  
Re: Pannepot ingredients
I think it was because I entered a URL to struise homepage that kicked my message. This happened after the username and pwd.

By the way, I posted the question on BN forum. So far 0 replies....

I have heard that in the pannepot they once used coffee replacement. The ingredient was roasted roots of "cikorie" (in danish). The latin name is Cichorium intybus.

/Frank

Mike T
04/10/08 11:06 AM  
Re: Pannepot ingredients
Hmmm... chicory, like the Dogfish Head stout, interesting.
Frank Reitz
04/10/08 01:43 PM  
Re: Pannepot ingredients
Regarding chicory, it's not confirmed - just something I found on a site that had pannepot for sale.

Maybe chicory was an ingredient in dikbier originally?

/Frank

Caped Brewsader
04/11/08 10:21 AM  
Re: Pannepot ingredients
this is from their website, with some translation and comments from me:

EBC : 99

IBU : 27

OG : 1.100

FG : 1.030

ALC. VOL. : 10°

Ingredients : Pilsner malt; Caramel malt ; Carafa ; coffee (I assume coffee malt and not real coffee), Chocolate (I assume chocolate malt and not real chocolate), flaked corn; Candij sugar (doesn't specify syrup or rocks but I think I saw a photo of syrup being used there.. could be wrong); cane sugar

Hops : Bramling Cross, Hallertauer Mittelfrueh

Herbs : cinnamon ; sweet orange peel, thyme,

coriander

Frank Reitz
04/11/08 01:48 PM  
Re: Pannepot ingredients
...as far as I remember they also mentioned vanilla

/Frank

Ryan
04/11/08 07:28 PM  
Re: Pannepot ingredients
something else to think about is the yeast choice. Dry yeast?

What makes you say that Frank? In the radio interview they mentioned that all of their beers are open fermentation and so they must be wild no?

I'm going to pop one of the bottles I have this weekend and try to culture the dregs.

r

Frank Reitz
04/12/08 03:01 AM  
Re: Pannepot ingredients
Ryan

Open fermentation is certainly not the same as a wild ferment. Also there's nothing wild about the Pannepøt that I've tasted so far.

In the BN interview with struise they mentioned that they cultured their yeast from Lesaffre (or dcl). They also mentioned they used a wild blend from Wyeast, but I take it that it's for their Struiselensis (I guess) and Witte - but certainly not for the Pannepot.

Godd luck culturing.

/Frank

Ryan
04/12/08 07:21 AM  
Re: Pannepot ingredients
Frank-

agreed.

However, I also heard them say that all of their beers have a "farm" quality that comes from being brewed on their property in open fermenters. I didn't take this to mean "farmy" like "barnyard" but I assume that they do have some kind of natural yeast getting involved. I too noted that they supplement their intentionally wild beers with WYeast cultures.

So what is up with Lesaffre? Is this a dehydrated belgian strain?

Frank Reitz
04/12/08 07:56 AM  
Re: Pannepot ingredients
Ryan, they do open ferment and of course depending on the environment some wild yeasts and bacteria will settle on the wort. I doubt it will give too many extra flavours since I take it they move it to another closed tank for conditioning as soon as the primary ferment is over.

I don't think the dry yeast is a belgian strain but I'm not sure. Would be funny to know the exact strain.

/Frank

cmillward
04/12/08 10:49 AM  
Re: Pannepot ingredients
In their recent interview on the Brewing Network podcast they mentioned their "house style" spices and they included cardamom, so that may be in Pannepot as well.
seanywonton (Sean White)
04/12/08 02:22 PM  
Re: Pannepot ingredients
Be careful with the cardamom. In my experience, extremely pervasive even at fairly low levels...
Frank Reitz
04/16/08 02:49 PM  
Re: Pannepot ingredients
So I got an answer over at BN from Urbain and I can't believe how informative those guys are about their brews. I mean with the bears they have they could choose to keep everything a secret but they don't.

They use T-58 as their house yeast in their open fermentation. Really interesting I'd say.

Btw. they don't use cardamom in Pannepot but maybe in other beers.

/Frank

cmillward
04/16/08 03:50 PM  
Re: Pannepot ingredients
Cool. Frank, thanks for posting a followup on this.
Seanywonton (Sean White)
04/17/08 10:57 AM  
Re: Pannepot ingredients
Hey Frank,

Could you give us a web address for that converstion? Thanks.

Frank Reitz
04/17/08 11:05 AM  
Re: Pannepot ingredients
Sure, it's http://thebrewingnetwork.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=81202#81202

/Frank

SAH
04/20/08 10:45 PM  
Re: Pannepot ingredients
I see most of the pieces for this one, anybody close to putting together the full puzzle?(if you know what I mean?)

Care to post what you'd attempt?

Frank Reitz
04/21/08 03:34 AM  
Re: Pannepot ingredients
I'm at it. I'll see if I can get my ideas for the recipe put together tonight

/Frank

Mike T
04/21/08 09:49 AM  
Re: Pannepot ingredients
This is my former apartment-mates favorite beer, so I figure I’ll brew some to give to her as a present at some point. I pieced something together in Promash, I'll post tonight as well and we can compare.

On the sheets for the Reserva and Grand Reserva it mentions Special B, so I assume that’s what they use for the regular as well. I think getting some Pannepot dregs is key as that will give the slight hint of wildness as the beer ages.

Frank Reitz
04/21/08 05:38 PM  
Re: Pannepot ingredients
I put a recipe together. It's in metrics, sorry.

Critiques are welcome before I try this out. I haven't noticed any funkyness in my bottles so I'm leaving out the pannepot dregs.

-------------------

Statistics

Volume: 23 liter

OG: 1104

FG: 1024 (Struise homepage says 1.030, BeerAdvocate says 1.025)

Effiency: 76%

Alcohol: 10 % by vol.

Colour: 73 EBC (Black)

Bitterness: 27 IBU

BU/GU: 0.25

Fermentables

Pilsner Malt 3 EBC 6764 grammes

Cara Crystal 120 EBC 1082 grammes

Cara Aroma 350 EBC 541 grammes

Chocolate Malt 800 EBC 54 grammes

Black Malt 1200 EBC 54 grammes

Dark Candi Rocks 80 EBC 405 grammes

Dark Candi Syrup 250EBC 405 grammes

Flaked Corn 270 grammes

Mash 67C 1 hour

Hops

Bramling 7.5% 40 grammes 60 minutes

Hallertauer Mittelfruh 5% 27 grammes 30 minutes

Hallertauer Mittelfruh 5% 20 grammes 10 minutes

Fermentation

Yeast: 2 x Safbrew T-58

Fermented at 24 degrees C for 7 days.

Fermented at 17 degrees C for 56 days.

Comments:

At 10 minutes before flameout add

14 gr. sweet orange peel

12 gr. crushed coriander seeds

1 tsp ground cinnamon

1/4 tsp thyme

Caped Brewsader
04/22/08 05:03 AM  
Re: Pannepot ingredients
Looks pretty good to me.

The rest of this response is me "thinking out loud" so take it with a grain of salt:

on the struise website they list "Pils, caramel mout, carafa, coffee malt, chocolate malt, flaked corn, candy sugar, and cane sugar". On the pages for all the other versions of Pannepot (Pannepeut, Grand reserva, reserva) they list Special B in place of "caramel malt" so I think it is safe to say that in the normal Pannepot caramel malt should be read as Special B. Its the same EBC as the cara-aroma you suggest but to me they are different. I can't get Carafa here but I have done some looking around in the past and I have come up with Chocolate 900EBC as a replacement for carafa 1 (unless they areusing carafa 2 or 3 or special). For the coffee and choc they list I would use the Choc 800EBC dehusked and the black 1200EBC dehusked

I have never used T-58 but I would have chosen 64-65C as a mash temp for that yeast... although that being said I have been having a bit of a problem with my last few batches drying out more than I wanted... So you should probably ignore me.

so here is my attempt (I don't have my brew software here at work so I'll give percentages by weight)

OG 1.100

90 minute boil (because of the high use of pils)

71% pils

4% Special B

2% Choc 900EBC

2% Choc 80EBC dehusked

1% Black 1200EBC dehusked

10% flaked corn

5% dark candy syrup

5% cane sugar

your hop schedule looks good to me and your spices look good too but I would cut the coriander down to about 8 grams.

Whatever you brew, keep us posted!

Mike T
04/22/08 09:01 AM  
Re: Pannepot ingredients
It looks like the only major difference is that I went much lighter on the dark malts than you (1.2% vs. 5%). I find the combination of too much dark malt and Belgian yeast to be a bit unpleasant, so I'll err on the low side. I also went a bit lower on the corn, the beer finished pretty sweet, so I wanted to avoid too much easily fermentable adjunct on top of the sugars.

Pannepot

Recipe Specifics

----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.25

Total Grain (Lbs): 19.63

Anticipated OG: 1.100

Anticipated SRM: 20.0

Anticipated IBU: 26.8

Brewhouse Efficiency: 70 %

Wort Boil Time: 120 Minutes

Grain/Extract/Sugar

-------------------

85.3% 16.75 lbs. Belgian Pilsener

4.1% 13 oz Dark Candi Sugar Syrup

4.1% 13 oz Cane Sugar

2.5% 0.50 lbs. Flaked Corn (Maize)

2.5% 0.50 lbs. Special B Malt

0.6% 2 oz Carafa

0.3% 1 oz Chocolate Malt

0.3% 1 oz KilnCoffee Malt

Hops

----

1.75 oz. Bramling Cross @ 60 min.

0.50 oz. Hallertauer Mittelfruh @ 20 min.

Extras

------

5.00 gm Corriander Seed @ 2 Min.(boil)

5.00 gm Sweet Orange Peel @ 2 Min.(boil)

1.00 gm Cinnamon @ 2 Min.(boil)

1.00 gm Thyme @ 2 Min.(boil)

Yeast

-----

T-58 and the dregs from a bottle of Pannepot

Mash Schedule

-------------

60 min @ 155 F (68 C)

Notes

-----

1st fermentation : 4 to 5 days max open at 75° F

2nd fermentation : 2 weeks closed at +- 62° F

lagering : 6 weeks

Bottle (with fresh yeast)

warm room : 1 week

cold riping : 6 weeks

Ryan
04/22/08 09:10 AM  
Re: Pannepot ingredients
Why the longer boil when using larger percentages of Pilsner?

Mike T
04/22/08 09:24 AM  
Re: Pannepot ingredients
Pils has a lot of SMM, the precursor to DMS. The longer boil, and a fast chill, ensures that it won't come through in the final beer. A long boil also allows you to collect more runnings and produce some additional malty (maillard reaction) flavors.
Caped Brewsader
04/22/08 09:25 AM  
Re: Pannepot ingredients
There are 3 reasons I suggested a 90 min boil.

1. is the use of a large percentage of Pilsner malt. This malt has a high level of DMS precursers that will result in DMS in the final beer if they are not gotten rid of in the boil.

2. This longer boil also has the nice effect of concentrating your sugars more so you don't need as much grain in your mash tun.

3. Struise does this when they make pannepot.

Caped Brewsader
04/22/08 09:31 AM  
Re: Pannepot ingredients
Mike T,

Have you had Hercule stout from Ellezelloise? or De Dolle Export Stout? Or Black Albert from Struise? Or my Belgian Imperial Stout? I love what roast does in Belgians! But a little less might be better, I don't know. I may have guessed too high on the corn though. Just my quick idea on the recipe. Does sound tasty though, I may have to brew this up.

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