Welcome to the homeBBBrew board!
Like the BBB, the homeBBBrew board is not a club, just a place to talk about making beer. Is there a swap you would like to see happen? If we can find a few others who have something similar then lets do it!

NO SPECIFIC REASON FOR THIS LINK...
I just really like the work levifunk is doing!

PASSWORD PROTECTION: READ THIS BEFORE POSTING!
YOUR BBB USERNAME AND PASSWORD WILL NOT WORK ON THIS BOARD! If you want to post, you need to read this.

HomeBBBrewBoard
HotLinks!
Brettanomyces Brewing
E-Symposium Transcript!

Trouble making Trappists?
Discover Liquid Candy Syrup!
See what color impact to expect from liquid candy.

Search for:
Author Replies
SAH
04/28/08 12:01 PM  
High Grav Wild Ales
I have two going that are 10-12% ABV beers, when finished. I tasted one that is at 1.005 and really wished it had more body. At the same time, I've been wanting to recreate my 20% ABV non-wild ale made with wlp099 that has not(and probably will never) carbed, but at a slightly lower ~18% ABV in the hopes that it would carb. While re-reading Wild brews on the plane this weekend the line about Brett dying at 18% made a lightbulb go off:

Make an 18+% beer that will use Brett in secondary, but will reach 18% at ~1.015, so the Brett will die before drying the beer out completely, then add active wlp099 and priming sugar to carb.

Thoughts? Experiences brewing high-abv wild ales?

As a side note, the 11-12% ABV 1.005 beer made me realize how easy it is to 'hide' the ABV in a beer by having it finish dry. It tastes like it has much less ABV, in the same way as the Oerbier Reserva(the highest ABV wild ale I've had) tastes like it has half the ABV it actually does. Amazing.

Baums
04/28/08 12:22 PM  
Re: High Grav Wild Ales
I don't think you can count on all bretts making it to 18%, or dying once they get there. We've all heard similar lines about sacc yeast dying at 15% or 18% or 21% or whatever, but the truth is a given cell may vary wildly in its resistance based on its history and state of health.

Also, the standard "formulas" used to calculate percent alcohol lose a lot of accuracy when you get up those alcohol levels. You'd have to find the more accurate tables somewwhere, I think.

So what I'm saying is that I don't think you can take a numeric approach to doing this.

It sounds like you want two things you didn't get before. (1) body, and (2) carbonation. To increase body, I think you can just use a higher percentage of grain to get your gravity. The carbonation is harder. If it can be done at all, perhaps adding a massive, actively fermenting high gravity starter, with the right amount of priming sugar, will do it. (I've never tried.)

tankdeer
04/28/08 01:20 PM  
Re: High Grav Wild Ales
While it may not have the same charm; if you have the equipment, you can always force carbonate and counter pressure fill.

Personally, I have yet to make a wild (or any) beer this big. My highest so far is an English BW at 12%. I do have 1 gallon of that separated on some oak and claussenii, but it's only been a month or so in secondary.

And I've got another full batch of wild beer that last I checked was around 10% abv (and tasting fantastic), but isn't done yet either.

I think the biggest wild beer I've had (and maybe the best) was the Russian River Toronado 20th Anniversary Ale. But that was "only" 10.43% abv. http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/863/38094

tankdeer
04/28/08 01:23 PM  
Re: High Grav Wild Ales
Oh, regarding hiding ABV. I agree that dryness can do a wonderful job of masking the potency of any given ale. However, I'm starting to think that the funk in general does at least an equally good job. I've had several wild beers in the 9-10% abv range, and pretty much every one tasted as if they were a five percenter. Which can make an evening very interesting. : )
SAH
04/28/08 03:58 PM  
Re: High Grav Wild Ales
<To increase body, I think you can just use a higher percentage of grain to get your gravity.> Baums

Is this assured? The 1.005/11% ABV beer did not have a large percentage of simple sugars. I think Brett can easily take all malt beers down to the single digits right?

Also, I realize the numbers aren't written in stone. I just want to try to kill Brett with ABV high enough to leave some body, and then bottle condition. I realize there are other ways to kill Brett, but like I said - I wanted to brew another monster anyway, so why not make it a wild ale.

Baums
04/28/08 04:21 PM  
Re: High Grav Wild Ales
I would expect a higher percentage of grain to increase the body through higher protein levels (not because of residual dextrins). Unmalted wheat or barley should also help.

If you increase body using protein, then you don't need to play any difficult games with attenuation, final gravity, brett alcohol tolerance, etc -- seems like it might be easier.

By the way Frank Boon has said that lactic acid also builds body, so that may be another avenue to look at.

--

"I think Brett can easily take all malt beers down to the single digits right?"

These days I'm skeptical about whether there are many circumstances when brett superattenuates on its own. (Also people have reported similar FGs to your 1.005 using things like WY3787--maybe some of that is due to the difference between apparent vs real attenuation for high alcohol beers). Anyway I think there are still a lot of big questions...

SAH
04/28/08 04:41 PM  
Re: High Grav Wild Ales
<<I would expect a higher percentage of grain to increase the body through higher protein levels (not because of residual dextrins). Unmalted wheat or barley should also help.

If you increase body using protein, then you don't need to play any difficult games with attenuation, final gravity, brett alcohol tolerance, etc -- seems like it might be easier.>> -Baums

How significant would increasing the protein be on the body? Could it make a 1.005 beer feel like 1.015?

Baums
04/28/08 05:49 PM  
Re: High Grav Wild Ales
I think protien is at least as important as dextrins to the sensation of body, maybe more.

I'm trying to think of some hard evidence but I can't off the top of my head. One thing is to consider how some tripels and other high alcohol beers can finish way dry, but still have plenty of body.

BPotts
04/28/08 07:52 PM  
Re: High Grav Wild Ales
I don't know if you happened to see the D2 dubbel thread or this is just a coincidence, but I was just saying how I'm surprised that more people aren't trying high gravity brett beers. I have one that's almost a year old, at 11 or 12 ABV right now (last time i checked)....it pooped out at around 1.048 (1.13 OG) and then after the addition of dregs and more bretts and bugs it's been going again now for around 6 months. With that said, it still has a lot of body any the sweetness is actually balanced by alcohol and acids.....worst comes to worst I plan on blending. I think your plan of making it high enough gravity for the brett to die off at higher alcohol levels is a good plan, although whether that's 18% or not I don't know..... there's a long thread on this beer a while back.....
SAH
04/28/08 10:01 PM  
Re: High Grav Wild Ales
<< don't know if you happened to see the D2 dubbel thread or this is just a coincidence>>BPotts

Its a little of both, I take posting here very seriously - so I had been thinking about what I was going to say, but I figured your post was a sign I should just post and not worry about it. I have read your Imp Red thread(correct one?) but definitely need to go back and read it again. My first super high ABV was mediocre at last tasting, hopefully my next attempt will be better. Thanks for the help guys, definitely going to try upping the protein.

BPotts
04/29/08 01:47 AM  
Re: High Grav Wild Ales
Actually, the Imperial Red red thread is a different beer, although that one's coming along nicely as well! Sort of a suped up orval kind of thing going on, not really in the red vein as i was hoping. Haven't tasted that in awhile, it's got a nice pellicle on it now.
SAH
04/29/08 10:18 AM  
Re: High Grav Wild Ales
This one?

<<so I recently brew an experimental extremely high gravity ale with malt, honey, sugar, and fruit juice (at around 1.13+ OG!) and pitched the WhiteLabs lambic blend with their Super High Gravity Yeast....after a quick and rigerous primary ferm. I racked to a secondary and added dregs of a Cantillon Cuvee Des Champions Gueze....I have know idea how this will turn out but I figure I'll let it sit for a year or two and then try......>>BPotts

I have a recipe in mind for mine, but would like to hear yours. Searching provided several threads about this(your) beer, but nothing about the specific recipe. If you don't have the specifics, general info on the sugar,fruit juice, and honey additions are what I'm interested in. Thanks.

BPotts
04/29/08 11:55 AM  
Re: High Grav Wild Ales
That's it! I don't have specifics, and I used extract, but it was something like 15 lbs of DME, several pounds of honey, maybe a cup to 1 lb of sugar, and a bottle or two of black cherry juice (100% Pressed cherries). I know I steeped with a lb. of special B, and probably some dark crystal - the juice also contributed color....Sorry my recollection is a little vague. Right now it's a reddish brown color. Also, added inocculated oak cubes from a kriek about 6 months in, which I think it definitly needed for flavor (and the extra bugs)

I don't think grain bill matters all that much in terms of flavor. You should shoot for fermentable sugars, dextrins, and the color you want. After all that time with bugs and alcohol I don't think specialty malts really make any difference in flavor.

BPotts
05/24/08 10:37 AM  
Re: High Grav Wild Ales
Hey, I'll be trying a new high gravity flemish red today, since last years effort has been blended into three beers after last week. It will be more moderate than my last attempt, and I'm hoping for complete attenuation this time. Shooting to for an OG around 1.1 or so. I'll be fermenting with a blend of blends - roselare and WL sour blend. Wish me luck!
BPotts
05/24/08 10:38 AM  
Re: High Grav Wild Ales
And, I'll be fermenting in plastic for the long haul...a little experiment....
BPotts
05/24/08 08:01 PM  
Re: High Grav Wild Ales
Final gravity turned out ~1.090 for 6 gal after a 2 1/4 hour boil. The ingredients were: 9 lbs of pilsen extra light dme, 1 lb. of special b, 1 lb. of caravienne, 4 oz. each of flaked barley and wheat, 1 cup of dextrose, roughly 18 oz. (by volume) of honey (ziegler's wildflower - very dark, and VERY tastey, and a bit of raw honey inlcuding some of the wax), and finally a couple of oz's of my homemade special dark candi syrup (for color enhancement). Came out a beautiful garnet red, and the aromas were all honey and malt.

Added 3 oz's of pre-boiled medium toast french oak chips, 1 vial of WL belgian sour blend, and one package of roselare blend, plus wort, into a plastic bucket. Pretty heavy oxygenation, and I plan do oxygenate more twice tonight.

BPotts
05/24/08 08:02 PM  
Re: High Grav Wild Ales
Oops, flaked oats, not barley.
 
Return to Forum

Post a Reply
Your Name:
Subject:
Message Body:


 
   
Username

Password

Around Bruges in 80 Beers: 2nd Edition

Around London in 80 Beers

Around Brussels in 80 Beers


Babblebelt contributors in attendance: