Welcome to the homeBBBrew board!
Like the BBB, the homeBBBrew board is not a club, just a place to talk about making beer. Is there a swap you would like to see happen? If we can find a few others who have something similar then lets do it!

NO SPECIFIC REASON FOR THIS LINK...
I just really like the work levifunk is doing!

PASSWORD PROTECTION: READ THIS BEFORE POSTING!
YOUR BBB USERNAME AND PASSWORD WILL NOT WORK ON THIS BOARD! If you want to post, you need to read this.

HomeBBBrewBoard
HotLinks!
Brettanomyces Brewing
E-Symposium Transcript!

Trouble making Trappists?
Discover Liquid Candy Syrup!
See what color impact to expect from liquid candy.

Search for:
Page:  1 2
Author Replies
tankdeer
04/30/08 10:46 PM  
Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
Ok. I got two packs of Roeselare in the kegerator just waiting to be used, so I'm planning some brews. I was looking at doing an Oud Bruin as one of them, so I pulled out Wild brews. The two Oud Bruin recipes in there use only Lacto and Pedio as souring agents. But I know that Jamil and others suggest a shorter aging with Roeselare provides good results too.

So, I thought I'd see what people's experiences are with both approaches. Even better if you've done both and can compare. One thought I had, if I just used lacto and pedio, is there enough sacch left in the aging process to clean up the supposed copious amounts of diacetyle that Pediococcus puts out?

Other than that, I will at least be doing a Flanders Red and something akin to Petrus Aged Pale.

Cheers

Al B
05/01/08 07:46 AM  
Re: Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
Good question Tankdeer. I have done a brune w/ just lacto, but in the case of Pedio, I would suggest to use some brett as in the case of the Rose. blend. The acidity and time duration may stress Saccharomyces a bit and may not be up to the task for diacetyl uptake. Vinne C. also states that if you use Pedio you should use Brett.

Baums
05/01/08 11:16 AM  
Re: Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
Like Al said.

By the way, I think (but do *not* know for certain) that Roeselare contains sacc, WY b. lambicus, lacto, and pedio.

tankdeer
05/01/08 11:56 AM  
Re: Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
Thanks Al. Yeah, I think Vinnie is who I first hear that from. That Brett was the best tool for the job of cleaning up after the pedio. Which makes perfect sense to me.

So, the Oud Bruin that you made with just lacto... how was it? Doesn't sound like you haven't tried the Roeselare approach to compare huh?

Baums; have you done the lacto Bruin as well? Also, that sounds about right as far as the composition of the Roeslare. Although I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't a couple "mystery bugs" in there as well.

So, I've always thought of Wild Brews as a pretty authoritative and accurate text on the subject. Could it be wrong in this case? I know I've certainly never had an Oud Bruin that tasted like sour, buttered popcorn. o.0

Al B
05/01/08 01:11 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
The Oud brune w/ lacto was OK, but of course not as complex as Rose blend due to Brett in my opinion.

I have "disected" the Roselare blend. I didn't loof for Pedio, but it does have Sacch., Brett, and Lacto in it. It really doesn't have any alot of mystery - I made a blend from scratch and gave it to SteveG for his red (which was excellent BTW).

There is every reason to believe that Pedio is associated with Reds/Brune if aged in wood as they were(are). Pedio and lacto will compete for the remaining sugars, so sometimes diacetyl can be dominant or absent (blending helps). I had a Monk's cafe flemish red that was buttered not long ago.

tankdeer
05/01/08 02:20 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
Cool Al. Almost sounds like I should do both and compare. As if I don't already have enough beers competing for carboy space. ; )

I suppose using the Roeselare but keeping it pretty anaerobic might be the best option. Should give a fair amount of complexity without any acetic character that would be better suited for a Red.

The one thing I wonder then, is it even possible, with that approach to keep some of the nice malty character that a good Bruin can have without pasteurizing and blending? I almost wouldn't think so.

Al B
05/01/08 03:10 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
<<nice malty character >>

Thats a tough trick. For a malty character, you may want to inoculate with a small amount of bugs in a seconadry for example, then chill when its right for you. I think thats the best approach w/out pasteurization/chemicals/filtering etc. etc.

Baums
05/01/08 03:14 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
"So, I've always thought of Wild Brews as a pretty authoritative and accurate text on the subject."

My favorite part of the book are the great nuggets of practical information that you could only get by doing the interviews and touring that Sparrow did. He had insight and asked great questions. I also think the book's coverage of biology and science are better read as Sparrow's *interpretation*, rather than a hard review of the science itself. If Sparrow had restricted himself to reporting hard proven facts, the book would be a lot shorter and less useful. The added interpretation adds value and context, but of course it also creates the need to read with a bit more critical eye.

(I think maybe none of that is what you were thinking about, and maybe I'm rambling.) In any case I think your question boils down to whether or not to use brett in addition to lactic bugs. If your intention is to make a beer in the tradition of wood-aged sours, like Al said, I'd go with the brett.

Based on experience, I'd also replace the maize in those recipes with something maltier, if you are looking for a truly malty character.

tankdeer
05/01/08 04:21 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
Al, that's pretty much what I've heard from Jamil, and likely what I will end up doing. Aging for a couple months with Roeselare and then into the kegerator. Hey, looks like it could actually turn into a wild beer that's ready in only 3-4 months. Nothing wrong with that. : )

Baums, you make a very good point about the way the book is written. And it does make it a very interesting read in that respect. I need to go back and read the chapters on Oud Bruin, although I know they're intermixed with info from the Reds, which is fine.

This beer will definitely not see any wood, as I'm trying to go for the cleaner, malty/sour mix. My Red and pale on the other hand, will most definitely see wood and micro-O2 to get much more acetic/funky character than the bruin, which should be a little cleaner and more lactic.

Seems that nowadays, Oud Bruins are typically aged in stainless whereas the Reds are still aged in oak. Funny how they started life as almost the same beer style and they seem very different now. I guess that's just how they've evolved over the years.

Al B
05/01/08 04:34 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
<<Hey, looks like it could actually turn into a wild beer that's ready in only 3-4 months>>

I was thinking that same thing with some 100% brett beers lately.

tankdeer
05/01/08 04:56 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
I haven't even been waiting that long on my 100% brett beers. I bottled the first thinking I'd want to age it a while, but the flavor has really not changed over the last couple months. So the next two went into kegs. An oatmeal stout and a wit. Both taste very nice and are fairly young.
Al B
05/01/08 05:14 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
Did your stoudt get tart? What was the Brett you used again? The Porter I did w/ lambicus got alittle tart after a couple of weeks (which is good).

The Wit too - I'm doing one real soon with clausenii

tankdeer
05/01/08 05:36 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
All three of my 100% brett beers have been claussenii, and none of them are tart. They all have an interesting fruitiness to them. Best described as generic "tropical" fruits. And some mild spiciness. No tart or pineapple.

I have some lambicus that I will be playing with soon too. Well, playing with primary at least. I already have an additional 5 gallons of the wit being secondaried with some of it. I think I'm going to try more with with 100% lambicus.

BPotts
05/01/08 10:07 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
My flanders pale ale turned out funky, sour AND stable after three months last spring/summer...a year later it hasn't over carbed at all in the bottle.
tankdeer
05/01/08 10:37 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
Ben, was that with Roeselare? I would be very happy if I had the same experience. Although I hadn't been counting on it. ; )
BPotts
05/02/08 11:44 AM  
Re: Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
Sorry, no it wasn't....fantome dregs in primary, so there were bretts and one veracious lacto strain (and I'm sure some other stuff)....just wanted to chime in with the fact it is possible to make a "wild" beer in rather short time....

I think that maybe be because food ran out...when I bottled it was at about 1.006-1.008, which means it's now roughly at 1.003-1.005

tankdeer
05/02/08 11:54 AM  
Re: Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
Ah. I have heard that Fantome yeast ferments like a madman. I almost got a bottle at Whole Foods yesterday, but opted for some beers I hadn't had before. I'll have to go back and grab one. Haven't had it in a while. : )

I'm guessing that since you mentioned it was fermented spring/summer that some elevated temps may have helped it finish quickly. Jamil states that you can finish a Red in ~3 months at 80, but it won't be quite as complex as one that is fermented lower and longer.

BPotts
05/02/08 12:02 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
Correct. Added the dregs in primary with WY farmhouse ale yeast, primaried for one month, secondaried for two. Temps were around 80. I think I agree with the complexity thing, but after a year in the bottle it has definitly become a wonderful beer. Overall, one of my most successful sours....
darrenc
05/02/08 12:52 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
Hi, just brewed a Bruin (somewhat following the Wild Brews suggested proportions) last weekend. 5 gallons in primary w/ WLP550. Have a pack of 5335 Lactobacillus for secondary and extended (1 year) aging, maybe adding cherries when in season. Should I make a started?
tankdeer
05/02/08 01:05 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
Cool Ben. All my sour beers are in my attic at the moment. They've been staying in the high 60's low 7's for the most part. But I know come summer there will be a few days where they'll get pretty warm. I plan on keeping an eye on the temps, but I certainly don't mind if they push into the 80's for a while. I will probably do a thorough sampling at the end of summer and decide what needs to be bottled or blended.

darrenc, if you're asking about making a starter just for the Lacto, it might not be necessary. It seems to sour up a beer fairly quickly and without the need for a very high cell count. Although depending on the ABV in secondary, the souring will be somewhat retarded. In all honesty, if you're just pitching lacto into secondary, I doubt you'll need a whole year. Sample after a couple months and see what you think. Hope that helps.

darrenc
05/02/08 01:19 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
thanks, what can I say BBB is always a wealth of knowledge. Hmm, 3 months is really all that's needed (this is my first attempt at a sour). I guess I kind of missed my time on the cherry harvest then. What would you say about adding fruit within only a month of pitching the Lacto? Or, maybe I'll have to just wait and taste? Not sure were the ABV is going to end up, my orig. grav. was around 1.060.
tankdeer
05/02/08 01:28 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
Well, I'm not saying it's going to be done in only 3 months. But you never know. I DO know that when I've used lacto as the only bug; it usually finishes up pretty quickly. If you add brett anything else, it'll probably take considerably longer.

I don't see a problem with adding cherries after only a month; but it might not be the most ideal. Or you could always freeze them until you need them. Freezing helps anyways because it helps break up the cell walls in the cherries.

Wait and taste is definitely the approach I would take. If it taste good in a month, then by all means add your fruit. These are definitely not beers you can rush. But sometimes they can suprise you and finish quicker than expected. And if you have cherries frozen and waiting, you don't need to time the beer around your cherry harvest.

Baums
05/02/08 01:47 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
"if you're asking about making a starter just for the Lacto, it might not be necessary. It seems to sour up a beer fairly quickly and without the need for a very high cell count."

tankdeer, are you saying you've gotten good sourness from Wyeast lacto (in beers with no sour mash or pedio or other bugs)? That would surprise me cause I've had the opposite experience.

darrenc
05/02/08 01:59 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
To clarify, yes I am asking whether or not to make a starter just for the lacto. Sounds like not necessary. I did make a starter for the WLP550, that is currently fermenting in primary.

My plan is to pitch the lacto after a week or two, and wait an see what develops. Based purely off of 'Wild Brews', was thinking one year of conditioning, then possibly adding cherries, for a kriek, or re-evaluating.

But, now will definitely (at least) think about test earlier. 3-4 months.

Good tip on freezing the cherries. I can always make a none sour fruit beer as well, if no sourness has developed within 3-6.

BPotts
05/02/08 02:07 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
Darren, that's the only one I've dared bottling after three months....all of my others have been sitting for much longer, or will be before I do anything with.

I do plan on trying a quick red this spring/summer, trying similar methods to my FPA. I have a red I brewed about a month ago, which had two bottles worth of petrus aged pale dregs (along with some old infected french saison yeast) for the primary. Today I'll be adding some Fantome Printemps dregs. I'm gonna try get the temp ramped up for a couple of months, and test the OG, taste, and hopefully bottle.

About the WY lacto - added a pack of the freshest-you-can-buy lacto to my all brett c & b "saison" brewed three weeks ago. Got it fresh out of the box from a new shipment, and the manufacturing date was a week or so before I purchased. I'm gonna put the carboy in a warm room, to try and get the temps up around 80 for that, and I'm assuming I'll get some good acidity.....i'll be sure to update in the "100% brett c & b" thread.

tankdeer
05/02/08 02:13 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
Baums, yes I have gotten considerable sourness from the Wyeast lacto. However, let me prefix this by saying it was in a no-boil berliner weisse. So, while I didn't add any other bugs or do a sour mash, theoretically some lacto from the grain probably survived through the mash and helped with the sourness. I must say though, that sucker is TART! ; )
tankdeer
05/02/08 02:19 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
Darren; Like Ben said. Don't count on it being done in that time. But it doesn't hurt to take a gravity reading and a taste. If there's no brett in there, I don't think you have to worry about the lacto attenuating too much more. Especially in an already alcoholic environment.
darrenc
05/02/08 02:27 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
'no-boil berliner weisse' damn, i am not trying to stoke anyone here. but damn, you guys are wild!

Will do on the lacto bruin/kreik. take a taste/test in 3 or 4, go from there. Freeze some cherries, in case. vacuum sealed I suppose is best? Out of curiosity, stems and all?

tankdeer
05/02/08 02:50 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
Re: no-boil. Hey, it's the traditional method. ; )

That sounds like a good plan for the bruin. vacuum seal is fine although it's probably not necessary. certainly won't hurt though. For the stems, personally, I'd remove them. (not sure if that's what most people do or not), but I'd leave the pits in. I know that is pretty standard routine.

darrenc
12/05/08 11:10 AM  
Re: Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
Hi,

Wanted to update on my Bruin attempt,and maybe ask some advice. I have recently taken a sample, after about 6 months of aging w/ lacto 5335. There did not appear to be much activity, occasionally a few patches of a very light foam on the surface. The gravity dropped a bit; 1.016 from when I pitched the lacto, to 1.007 currently. However, I don't taste any tart or sourness at all, and in fact just kind of over-attenuated and slightly bitter. :( I've racked the beer to a plastic "better bottle" from glass.

Reading some of the archived post, now thinking perhaps the temp. was too low (mid to high 60's). My question is does anyone think there is enough residual sugars to go on with this? Perhaps putting a heating pad, and/or pitching more bugs?

mtc
12/05/08 01:01 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin: Lacto/Pedio vs Roeselare
I had a similar outcome with that lacto strain even at very warm temps. BPotts recommended adding Fantome dregs for tartness and that was very good advice.
  Page:  1 2
Return to Forum

Post a Reply
Your Name:
Subject:
Message Body:


 
   
Username

Password

Around Bruges in 80 Beers: 2nd Edition

Around London in 80 Beers

Around Brussels in 80 Beers


Babblebelt contributors in attendance: