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Author Replies
triple beam
05/01/08 12:15 AM  
starter
Has anyone started a culture with Martinelli's cider? I've heard some pro's to using this as a starter (sterile-filtered, high glucose). I wanted to start a culture but don't have any DME on hand and I was hestitant to using H20 and sugar. Not too familiar with proper starter methods/protocol. A little insight to what you guys have had success with would be really insightful.
tankdeer
05/01/08 12:21 AM  
Re: starter
I wouldn't think it would be the ideal solution because it conditions your yeast to eat glucose instead of maltose. At least that's what I've always been told.
triple beam
05/01/08 02:42 AM  
Re: starter
What do you usually do for your starters tankdeer?
Al B
05/01/08 07:38 AM  
Re: starter
<< wouldn't think it would be the ideal solution because it conditions your yeast to eat glucose instead of maltose>>

Yes and no. It's not an ideal solution because there is no protein or amino acids. Sterol production will not be optimal for new cells. Glucose, however, is just as good as maltose - if not more readily consumed by yeast cells and the fact that this would carry over from starter to wort with negative effects is unfounded.

You can use sugar instead of malt extract, BUT YOU MUST add yeast nutrients in abundance to compensate for a lack of amino acids. I would only recommend using WYeast or WL brands. They are vitamin-based as opposed to strictly phosphate-based (i.e. DAP) for propagation starters.

Seanywonton (Sean White)
05/01/08 11:08 AM  
Re: starter
Here's my angle on this: Why risk it when you can use a little more effort, or patience, to get yourself some malt extract (or make an AG starter)?

Your beer can wait another week to brew right? It's better to do it right from the beginning instead of taking shortcuts. And definitely don't make a starter with corn sugar, even with yeast nutrient.

Al B
05/01/08 11:12 AM  
Re: starter
<<And definitely don't make a starter with corn sugar, even with yeast nutrient.>>

Based on what? Provided the nutrients are supplied for sterol production, a monsaccharide is not an issue as long specific gravity of the starter is appropriate.

Al B
05/01/08 11:15 AM  
Re: starter
I can make media containing Casein (amino acids), salt (osmotic balance), and glucose and the aerobic growth is as strong as malt extract.
tankdeer
05/01/08 11:46 AM  
Re: starter
<<What do you usually do for your starters tankdeer?>>

Personally, a couple times a year I'll make up 5-6 gallons of ~1.035 AG starter wort and pressure can it. That way I have sterile starter wort whenever I need it. Plus, it's a hell of a lot cheaper than DME.

Al, I was always told that if you make a starter using corn sugar (or any monosaccharide), that the yeast will certainly grow then gets "lazy" when in comes time for ferment a wort of more complex disaccharides like maltose? (although I've heard the same regarding making starters with Sucrose, but there must be something else since that is also a disaccharide)

So, what gives?

Seanywonton (Sean White)
05/01/08 12:56 PM  
Re: starter
Al B,

I'm sure that your science knowledge goes beyond mine as far as yeast metabolism is concerned, but I take Jamil's advice heavily on this subject.

He says that yeast, given only simple sugars to feed on, will quickly lose their ability to ferment maltose. I believe him. You may have a more nuanced knowledge here, but I really don't think that simple sugar + yeast nutrient is a good way to build a starter. It could lead to yeast that are unable to fully metabolize maltose.

Given the huge amount of time that we spend brewing up wort to make good beer, why would anyone try to cut corners when it comes to yeast health and propogation?

Al B
05/01/08 01:02 PM  
Re: starter
Its a misunderstanding of microbial kinetics. Maltose, being a disaccharide is readily consumed by yeast and not that complex. Its gets "lazy" because of a lack of essential nutrients outlined above. Glucose, sucrose, maltose, fructose are all good energy sources - but without building blocks (protein, lipids, zinc) for new cells, cell membranes, etc. they will be "lazy" not strong healthy cells.

DME is an excellent medium containing all of these essential nutrients, along with oxygen produce strong cells for fermentation. However, if you over-oxygenate for a long period of time, where all of the sugars are used up, the cells lose the glycogen reserves. Its important to supply enough proteins/nutrients when growing cells.

That said, I always make my starters for propagation or dreg recovery using DME + WY yeast nutrients.

Now to answer the original question - Is the culture you (Triplebeam) intend to grow for cider/wine/or beer? If its for cider or wine, I don't think they use DME for that (but of course you could).

Al B
05/01/08 01:19 PM  
Re: starter
I believe Randy Thiel, and Dr. MB Raines of Maltose Falcons concerning yeast growth.

And I agree that I would use DME + nutrients is better than sugar + nutirents. But what was Triplebeam trying to grow for what type of fermentation?

Al B
05/01/08 01:55 PM  
Re: starter
<<He says that yeast, given only simple sugars to feed on, will quickly lose their ability to ferment maltose.>>

I really don't believe that. It is however best to use the same type of media as wort as Dr. MB Raines says for extensive propagation where it may affect fermentation - although I believe I have an article where Randy Thiel finds that unfounded. But to quickly lose its ability altogether is not accurate in my view. Well, mutations can occur I reckon.

Tankdeer -

that's an interesting way of storing alot of starter. Do you sterilize hosing + outlet valves each time you want a starter?

tankdeer
05/01/08 02:31 PM  
Re: starter
<<Tankdeer -

that's an interesting way of storing alot of starter. Do you sterilize hosing + outlet valves each time you want a starter? >>

Nah, I don't do anything extraordinary when actually prepping a starter.

Not sterilize, just sanitize my erlenmeyer, stirbar, & funnel with starsan. Pop the lid off the starter jar, flame the lip (probably not necessary, and I have forgotten without any ill effects) and pour into the flask. Pitch the yeast, cover with foil and onto the stirplate for 24-48 hours. Then into the fridge. Very simple and I've had good success with it.

The main reason the wort itself is sterilized is so it is shelf stable at room temp. (And to kill potential botulism spores)

Al B
05/01/08 02:34 PM  
Re: starter
That's good enough technique alright. So you just pour from the pressure-can? I think I would need a sink for that.
tankdeer
05/01/08 02:50 PM  
Re: starter
Yup. Just pour. That's what the funnel is for. However, it's fairly easy to get it into the flask without it. But a sink would help, just in case you were less than accurate in your pouring. ; )

On a side note, you would be amazed at the amount of hot break that forms when you're boiling wort at 250 degrees!

Al B
05/01/08 03:01 PM  
Re: starter
You should see my basement floor, I really need a sink down there........and a mop.
tankdeer
05/01/08 04:05 PM  
Re: starter
Or a floor drain and a hose. ; )
Ryan
05/01/08 04:35 PM  
Re: starter
You mean you pressure can in little ball jars right? Like if you were making homemade jam?

Al were you picturing him pouring wort from a huge pot?

Al B
05/01/08 04:42 PM  
Re: starter
No, I was pouring from a 5Gal corny and wort dribbling all over the place - I dunno about that. I use thick corning glass bottles and freeze wort starters - but not very many.
tankdeer
05/01/08 05:00 PM  
Re: starter
Ryan, yes. Pretty much standard mason jars. A mix of quarts and pints. (Gotta mind my P's & Q's). The difference from Jam is that you need to pressure can start wort instead of using a water bath like you can with jam. Basically the pH of wort is not low enough to safely do it that way.

Al, no corny. Basically mash and sparge normally, collect into my kettle. And from the kettle into the canning jars. From there into the pressure cooker. The kettle is just a temporary holding vessel. Boiling is done under pressure.

Al B
05/01/08 05:12 PM  
Re: starter
Oh OK, got it. I forget about those pressure-cookers.
tankdeer
05/01/08 05:32 PM  
Re: starter
Poor man's autoclave ; )
Ryan
05/01/08 06:11 PM  
Re: starter
tank

you and I had this same conversation on "another board" the other day...

though I bet you didn't know it.

;)

tankdeer
05/01/08 06:18 PM  
Re: starter
Sup Ryan, it seems that I have this same conversation on that "other board" about once a month. :-P

Also, I might have known it. I certainly knew I was having it, but it could have been with myself. ; )

Ryan
05/01/08 06:38 PM  
Re: starter
I just figured you'd not have known it cuz I use a different username.

;)

tankdeer
05/01/08 10:35 PM  
Re: starter
Ok. So, who the hell are you on the other board? Or are you just going to mess with my head? ; )
triple beam
05/02/08 12:06 AM  
Re: starter
<<Your beer can wait another week to brew right>>

Thanks for the reply Sean. The beer is done w/secondary.

I'm not trying to take short-cuts, but I wanted to know if this has been used for starters and if not, why not. And what works best as I inquired. DME sounds like it is best for application with starters (and easiest).

<<what was Triplebeam trying to grow for what type of fermentation? >>

An Orval dregs culture for a bottle conditioning of a witbeer.

Ryan
05/02/08 07:39 AM  
Re: starter
Tank

go check your mail "over there"

Al B
05/02/08 07:48 AM  
Re: starter
<<An Orval dregs culture for a bottle conditioning of a witbeer.>>

Sounds tasty.

 
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