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MTC
05/02/08 03:33 PM  
Lacto Question
Long time lurker, first time posting.

I brewed a Berliner Weisse to Jamil's specs and am underwhelmed by the lack of sour provided by the lacto. The beer in question is still young at 3 weeks and is in secondary. Gravity currently is 1.004.

Question is: will the sour develop over time in the bottle or is the WY lacto and WY Euro Ale just not the route to go next time? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

tankdeer
05/02/08 03:53 PM  
Re: Lacto Question
Personally, I have found that most of the lactic acid develops fairly quickly, although the flavors will probably meld and change over time.

I was looking at Jamil's recipe before I did mine and kinda thought he was under pitching the lacto. I used built up a nice big starter of the lacto and pitched along with a single tube of WLP001. The theory being that the lacto should develop a decent amount of sourness before the sacch really kicks in. Although, being such a low gravity it doesn't take all that long.

As mentioned in another thread though, my berliner weisse was no-boil and there is a theory that that contributed to the increased level of acidity.

BPotts
05/02/08 04:14 PM  
Re: Lacto Question
Honestly, the WY lacto does not seem to do very much..... I'm hoping to change my opinion in a beer going now, but I'll say it before Buams does, I've used it before, and have other beers with it now, and have not gotten much out of it. I wondering if high temps might be the trick.

Tankdeer seems to be the exception...tankdeer what temp was your berliner fermented at?

I've said it a million times and I'll say it again, find an old bottle of Fantome, dump in the dregs, and let 'er rip. It's already very alcohol tolerant and is really the only lacto i'v achieved worthwhile sourness out of, and in very modest time. Fermented quite warm, that is.

Baums
05/02/08 04:17 PM  
Re: Lacto Question
I've had no luck, in two tries, getting good sourness when pitching WY lacto either after or during the primary ferment (in Flemish style Reds). I would not expect the sourness to continue developing.

Many people have reported disappointing sourness from this lacto strain, and it certainly seems likely to me that tankdeer's no-boil procedure is actually what's responsible for the good acidity he got.

Perhaps an enormous lacto starter would help too--but there we return to the world of speculation, since I can't recall anyone reporting that they used that approach and that it worked (without also using no-boil).

For what its worth I once tried to sour a bit of wort with this lacto strain and NO yeast, at 85-90F, just as a test--and got very little sourness. But, that's just one data point and one set of conditions.

Baums
05/02/08 04:18 PM  
Re: Lacto Question
Potts looks like you did beat me to it by a minute or two...
BPotts
05/02/08 04:22 PM  
Re: Lacto Question
Mwuahahahah!

Baums, guess Tankdeers fermentation temp wasn't the trick! I'll still post how the brett saison does but i'm not going to get my hopes up.

tankdeer
05/02/08 05:06 PM  
Re: Lacto Question
Sounds like I'm special. I had no idea. ;-)

Here's what I did. Pitched WY Lacto into 1L starter wort on a stirplate and put the heating pad on it for ~48 hours. I didn't do any precise temp measurements but it was easily in the mid 80's. Quite warm to the touch. Then put that into the fridge to settle. I DID NOT taste the starter wort, but I DID give it a solid whiff and it smelt very tart and lactic.

I decanted about 1/2 of the liquid and pitched the rest. Turns out lactobacillus does flocculate, but it's very light and powdery so it got stirred up easily) That ~500 ml was pitched into 10 gallons of no-boil, 1.036 berliner wort along with 1 tube of WLP001 split between the two.

Ferm temps were normal ale temps. Maybe 68. So as you said, I don't think that was it. Propagation temps were high though, and as mentioned, everybody is pretty sure that the no-boil helped it out.

I also had 5 gallons with the WY3191 berliner strain that was quite tart after only a week with the same wort. And since pretty much nobody has gotten anything close to sour out of that in less than a couple months, that pretty much guarantees the no-boil helped.

However, now in my fridge I have a good slurry leftover from that and it's quite tart too. I have a feeling (although no science to back this up) that if and when I repitch that, I'll get some decent sourness then too.

This was my first time using the WY lacto and I am happy with the results.

Ryan
05/02/08 05:11 PM  
Re: Lacto Question
Welcome to the board MTC

MTC
05/02/08 05:55 PM  
Re: Lacto Question
Thanks for all of the feedback evryone.

BPotts, at 1.004 do you think it is too late to add the dregs of a Fantome as you suggested? (If you must, lie so I can be justified in cracking one this evening anyway!)

BPotts
05/02/08 06:31 PM  
Re: Lacto Question
Well, it could never hurt IMO, though I'm not sure there's much left for it to eat. Try it if you're not in any hurry - put it in a warm place, and let it sit a couple months. Then take a reading and taste....if it's evolving then let it sit, if not, then, well, that's probably all you're gonna get and try it in the primary the next batch.
mtc
05/09/08 01:00 PM  
Re: Lacto Question
Fantome dregs were added on May 3rd. As of last night, small white islands have begun to reappear and positive pressure is evident in the airlock. Sound advice, BPotts. I'll keep you posted.
mtc
08/25/08 10:06 PM  
Re: Lacto Question
Bpotts-

Just quick note regarding this stream and your advice to go with Fantome dregs for acidity. Very good advice, my friend. My Berliner just took a Best of Show in a low gravity competion in Texas. Looks like I owe you a bottle or two!

BPotts
08/25/08 10:41 PM  
Re: Lacto Question
Awesome! Congratulations... glad it actually worked ;) ....sometimes these types of beers can be so unpredictable.

I have a berliner that got a fantome dreg acid boost entered in comp to go down two weekends from now. I hope it does as well as yours! I think it has a good chance to at least place in the category, which will probably just be all sours combined...usually not too many sours

 
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