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Author Replies
BPotts
05/17/08 06:36 PM  
Roselare Saison
I picked up a pack of the Roselare today, and my intent is to brew a saison with it, along the lines of De Ranke XX Bitter (which was brewed with Rodenbach yeast when it was still available). I know it states to wait 18 montsh for full flavor development, but I don't want flemish red flavor I want subtle complexity from the bugs. Has anyone done a rather short aging period for this blend with success? How long has it taken to reach TG?
CDH
05/17/08 09:55 PM  
Re: Roselare Saison
I did a wit with it a couple of years back, and it was really not palatable until about 8 months it. Roeselare brings a big murky flavor that just doesn't go away for a long time. At 9 months to a year, it got really nice.

Don't count on it getting "subtly funky" in a short period of time... It brings the noise and the funk early on, and the noise needs time to dissipate.

BPotts
05/18/08 09:57 AM  
Re: Roselare Saison
Hmmm....dissapointing news, but helpful - thanks CDH, glad I asked. I wonder how De Ranke makes XX bitter, whether it's primaried with a mixed culture or not....I'm gonna have to think how exactly to go about this....
mtc
05/18/08 11:25 AM  
Re: Roselare Saison
This is pure speculation, but I would think you could approach this Saison like Jamil's take on Oud Bruin.

He suggests going with a neutral yeast in primary and then adding the bugs in secondary. Because you are going into fairly uncharted territory for the style, you'll be able to finish this beer to your own tastes by sampling now and then. I would think you could get something very good in 3-6 months, especially as things begin to warm up. It may not turn out like De Ranke, but I bet it would be an interesting take on the style.

I, for one, would be very interested in your results no matter the path you take to get there. The other half of a saison I mentioned in another post was bugged at 1.016 with Pedio, Lacto, and Brett L about a month ago--pellicle is already evident. I was inspired by a sour saison I tasted last year made by Sean Paxton.

Cisco
05/18/08 12:09 PM  
Re: Roselare Saison
I accomplished a Roselare Saison by brewing a normal saison with saison yeast and then at bottling time I added 1 gallon of a year old Roselare to 5 gallons of Saison. It took at least 8 months before everything married. It is now phenomenal after a year. You will get some phenolics early on but they will dissapate over a years time.
BPotts
05/18/08 12:39 PM  
Re: Roselare Saison
Interesting take, cisco...sounds tastey - I'll be trying my hand at blending for the first time today (year old high grav FRed with a strong stout).

mtc, that's what I was thinking. Might be the best way to get what I'm looking for with minimal aging. With 10 beers going, all with bugs, (plus the stout destined for bug blending) I'm trying to do one that WONT tie up a carboy for a year or more..... I'll primary with a saison yeast instead of a neutral yeast, and give it a healthy dose of dry hops for the long haul. I'll let you know how it turns out!

seanywonton (Sean White)
05/18/08 02:41 PM  
Re: Roselare Saison
I think Cisco's suggestion of blending makes a lot of sense. Some friends and I were having fun at the bar last week blending a small amount of Rodenbach Grand Cru in with a majority of Southampton Double White. at about 1:4 parts it was very nice.

I also think you might be able to start a saison with a neural ale yeast and add the roselaire after a week or two. Maybe a Golden strong yeast for fruityness without too much phenol? The amount of residual sugars in the saison will most likely have a big effect on how sour the beer gets. If you make a pretty fermentable beer, as saisons typically are, the sourness should be more downplayed.

Also Jamil says you can ferment the roselaire pretty warm in the secondary (up to 80) for a speedier, but less complex sour profile.

BPotts
05/18/08 08:11 PM  
Re: Roselare Saison
Sean - I'm not looking for sour really, just a little extra complexity from the bugs, so I think a saison yeast would be good in order to keep sourness in check.
BPotts
06/07/08 11:11 PM  
Re: Roselare Saison
Quick update - I decided to use the roselare in conjunction with the WL sour blend for a high gravity sour red. But, I have decided to culture up some dregs from a cuvée de ranke, cantillon lou pepe kriek 2004 and 50ºN-4ºE (cognac barrel geuze), and I plan to add that to a saison primaried with WY farmhouse. Should go down sometime by the end of this week.
BPotts
07/04/08 04:48 PM  
Re: Roselare Saison
Tasting the saison now...exactly what I was looking for.... hoppy gueze like aroma (think cantillon cuvee des champions), slightly sour/bretty taste behind the grainy spicy saison flavors, and down to ~1.003. Looks like I may be able to bottle sooner than I originally thought.
mrb
07/15/08 10:25 PM  
Re: Roselare Saison
BPotts:

Can you post your recipe and process? Thanks!

BPotts
07/15/08 11:17 PM  
Re: Roselare Saison
I'll have to try my best and recollect exactly which recipe I used for this beer, I've been brewing lots of saisons lately, but I think it was this one:

primarily all pils malt (maybe 90-95%) with a little bit of flaked wheat, oats, and acidulated malt filling out the remainder. A couple lbs of wildflower honey was added to for the boil (usually I add it after I turn off the heat but for some reason I think I put it in for the whole boil this time). OG ~1.060. The hops were a combo of EKG's/styrians/organic belgian saaz. I forget the exact amounts but I like to put a lot of hops in my beer - probably should have taken better notes ;)

After primary fermentation was done I added the starter mentioned above along with an oz of the belgian saaz.

BPotts
07/15/08 11:22 PM  
Re: Roselare Saison
Forgot to mention - the primary was done with WY Farmhouse (thanks again Al!) and it got up into the low 90's and and stayed at least in the 80's for the entire fermentation. After it was tranfered to secondary with dry hops and bug starter it was placed in a warm room closet where it's been in the upper 70's at coolest and up into the 90's at it's hottest.
mrb
07/16/08 11:47 AM  
Re: Roselare Saison
Sounds delicious! I'm thinking of trying something similar but going for a 60/20/20 Pils/Wheat/Rye because I'm obsessed with Rye these days.
BPotts
07/16/08 09:39 PM  
Re: Roselare Saison
Ahh...rye would be a good addition, that would compliment the spiciness of the yeast and hops (if you go with some EKG's or something similar) and add a little tanginess. What are your plans for the bretts/bugs?
mrb
07/16/08 10:24 PM  
Re: Roselare Saison
Yeah that's what I was thinking in re: rye's spicy qualities. I think I'm going to do a primary with a week old cultured WY 3726 Farmhouse pitch and then secondary I want to culture from some bottles I have (Russian River and Jolly Pumpkin) and possibly add some chips from used wine barrels from Brooklyn that a friend stumbled upon. What kind of mash schedule would you recommend for the malt blend I'm proposing?
BPotts
07/16/08 11:23 PM  
Re: Roselare Saison
I would just do a single infusion and mash in around 148-150 for fermentability. I didn't want the bugs to go crazy so the beer was probably around 1.010-1.008 or so when I added the starter, although it's certainly made a larger impact on flavor than I expected. I haven't checked the grav since the last post but it's gotta be around 1.002 at this point.
BPotts
07/19/08 02:47 PM  
Re: Roselare Saison
Wahwahweewah....today I'm tasting several of my saisons, and this one takes the cake for driest, yet most flavorful. The gravity, at 80F, is at about .998 (and that's down from ~1.060). The flavor is dry, hoppy, and perfectly funked and soured - not too much to call it lambic-like or anything, but enough to play a strong supporting role. I couldn't have hoped for anything better. And, it's still bubbling away slowly ;). How low can it go!

I'm drinking my first al-blend saison right now, which is now conditioned well in the bottle...effing great....I'm in saison heaven!

korndog
07/22/08 02:26 AM  
Re: Roselare Saison
Just pitched WY Farmhouse strain Friday and actively fermenting. Was debating between straight Brett or Roeselare for secondary. Your results sound encouraging. What was the gravity when you pitched the Roeselare? Does the sacch strain maintain character post-bug? Did you maintain 80F throughout fermentation?

Thanks

KD

BPotts
07/22/08 09:47 AM  
Re: Roselare Saison
If you're looking for something more "traditional" you might want to go with the roselare, but if you read some of the above responses that probably wont yield anything in less then 9 months - year. I actually ended up going another route with this beer, noted above... I decided to use the roselare for another project.

I cultured up some dregs from a cuvée de ranke, cantillon lou pepe kriek 2004 and 50ºN-4ºE, in a half gal starter which I put outside in the shade during the first ferocious philly heat wave. So, it was in the upper 70's at it's coolest in the middle of the night and around 95+ at height of the day. The results was an extremely sour, slimy, cantillon-like starter. I think that went for two weeks, and then I added to the saison after primary was complete. I didn't take a gravity reading when adding but I did a week or two before I added and it was down to 1.012 and still going. I estimate it was about 1.010-1.007 when the bug starter was added.

The original saison was fermented during the same heat wave, and easily maintained temps in the 90's for primary and the 80's throughout. The marriage of hoppy saison and gueze like flavors and aromas is perfect - neither the bugs or the farmhouse or anything stands out on top.

FWIW I did a similar type of beer last summer, but added fantome dregs in the primary. The resulting beer was quite tart (but not too much for my tastes, I really like sour beers) and the farmhouse flavors really stood out at first, which I think kind of clashed with the buggy flavors at first. That aged out though, and after a year in the bottle it's a great beer.

korndog
07/22/08 03:27 PM  
Re: Roselare Saison
Thank you for the clarification. Sorry, I got a bit confused reading the posts. Intersting information.

mrb
07/26/08 02:43 PM  
Re: Roselare Saison
Got two yeast starters going, one with the Wyeast BDG seasonal yeast, and one with the Wyeast farmhouse yeast. I smacked the packs, let them sit 24 hours, and they were about to pop. Pitched them to one quart jars with a 1.040 starter made with some light LME. Also poured the dregs of a bottle of Jolly Pumpkin calabaza blanca to the Farmhouse batch, and both are growing like mad in my kitchen which is consistently in the high 70s/low 80s, around were I want to ferment my Saison. Brewing probably tomorrow, so the starter will be about 3 days old + the 24 hours in the smack pack. Recipe is looking like 65/15/15/5 Pilsen/Wheat/Rye/Sugar, all Cascade Whole leaf hops to about 30 IBU. Single step infusion mash at 148. Not sure about spicing, might leave it out. Trying to decide which yeast to pitch and how much of each -- Any thoughts? I should have a good amount of slurry by tomorrow morning!
mrb
07/29/08 11:46 AM  
Re: Roselare Saison
Ended up pitching the farmhouse/jolly pumpkin starter to this Saison, which is going wild in primary right now! Here's a video where you can see/hear the fermentation: http://flickr.com/photos/blackquarter/2712506952/
korndog
07/29/08 01:12 PM  
Re: Roselare Saison
"Ended up pitching the farmhouse/jolly pumpkin starter to this Saison, which is going wild in primary right now! Here's a video where you can see/hear the fermentation"

I had similar action with this yeast. I pitched at 1.065 and it was 1.007 in 7 days when I pitched Orval bottoms.

BPotts
07/29/08 07:33 PM  
Re: Roselare Saison
nice....

I picked up some of the WY biere de garde the other day...gotta figure out something to do with that now...

too many yeasts, not enough time....

BPotts
08/03/08 01:25 PM  
Re: Roselare Saison
Bottling this up today, just checked the grav which is at 0 plato in the upper 70's or so..... I think it's safe.
mrb
08/03/08 02:16 PM  
Re: Roselare Saison
After 7 days in Primary, my Saison has gone from 1.058 down to 1.008 or so. Gonna rack soon I guess!
BPotts
08/03/08 02:36 PM  
Re: Roselare Saison
Sounds about right... Any funk from the JP dregs? How warm did you end up fermenting?
mrb
08/03/08 03:23 PM  
Re: Roselare Saison
It's been fermenting at a pretty steady 78-79 degrees in my basement. The JP comes through on the nose a little bit, but nothing major. Tastes great with some tiny bubbles, and it's refreshing, and pretty bitter, but nothing too funky at all in the taste yet. Any suggestions on when to rack this off? I'm interested in pitching something else to this for secondary, just looking for the tiniest bit of tartness.
BPotts
08/03/08 03:28 PM  
Re: Roselare Saison
Sounds like it's ready to be racked....I racked mine after normal primary and then added the bug starter in secondary....all of the flavors have melted quite well since it has been sitting, I'm excited to start bottling (as soon as I get this priming sugar heated up in some water...)

Keep us updated on how it goes

BPotts
08/16/08 08:02 AM  
Re: Roselare Saison
Well it's been a couple of weeks now and I tasted a couple bottles....very good, but definitly needs some time to condition...carbed up fine for the low grav without any extra yeast addition. I forget who asked whether the farmhouse character would come through at all - those flavors are certainly gone behind the dry hops and bugs.
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