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mtc
07/21/08 02:00 AM  
Brett C inquiry
A while back I posted a bit about an all brett c beer I made that came out very well. That beer was very clean, indeed it could "pass" for nice belgian pale with no hint of funk/sour. I saved the yeast cake from that batch to be used on a future batch.

I decided to add that yeast cake to an American-style saison I made with Al's blend today in secondary and noticed something odd (and exciting). As I was pouring off the starter I took a little finger dip and damn if it wasn't tart and acidic! This was quite unusual with my experience with brett c.

So, what is going on here? Does this strain sour up over time (none of the original bottled beers have)? Was it limited exposure to oxygen having been covered with foil for the last month? Does this strain get tart as it is fed in successive batches?

Any ideas, thoughts, or shared experiences would be greatly appreciated. I really want to try to recreate the stuff I was pouring down my drain!

BPotts
07/21/08 05:16 AM  
Re: Brett C inquiry
Others have reported of acidity produced by brett c, but I have yet to figure out how to intentionally coax it out...
Al B
07/21/08 07:33 AM  
Re: Brett C inquiry
Are you also detecting pineapple aroma? If so, that is B. clausenii.

It seems that this brett behaves differently with oxygen in fresh wort. Under these conditions, it doesn't produce much, if any, acid along with pineapple. Rather it is clean, slightly fruity and doesn't seem to increase. However, with a high pitch rate under anaerobic conditions, the potential of acidity and pineapple is more likely and will increase in intensity over time. Notice I didn't say definately. But this has been my experience though with three 100% clausenii beers and SteveG's 100% clausenii Berliner and Barleywine beers.

That is contrary to what is suggested in some references, where oxygen may promote acetic acid production in bretts. This is minimal in my experience with every strain of brett. Clausenii may produce other acids (such as citric) -hence the pinapple flavor.

Al B
08/20/08 09:31 PM  
Re: Brett C inquiry
Yet another interesting development........

So I brewed a wit on 5/9 and fermented half of it with 100% B.c. 72F 1040 - 1006 after a couple of months, no acidity or pine-apple, the beer was thin, dry. The wort was aerated upon pitch. Consistent w/ others at this point.

So, I wanted a bit of tartness but didn't want to add lacto, I added some fresh B.c and some maltodextrin (about an oz.) under CO2 about a month ago and tasted tonight.

Damn if it didn't taste like Jolly Pumpkin Calabaza Blanca. Perfect. Go figure.

Al Blanca

Baums
08/21/08 09:57 AM  
Re: Brett C inquiry
Didn't by any chance have a control bottle or something, to which no additional B.c. was added, did ya?
Al B
08/21/08 10:04 AM  
Re: Brett C inquiry
Afraid not, but I felt it would work although I wasn't setting out to pull off a JP clone.

I didn't want to be patient for another 3 months, I didn't feel it iwas going anywhere.

BPotts
08/21/08 10:17 AM  
Re: Brett C inquiry
So what do you think accounted for the added complexity? The slow feeding on a small amount of sugars, like a normal brett secondary? It's an interesting process to primary with brett c and then secondary with the same strain which took it in a different direction....very peculiar.
Al B
08/21/08 10:23 AM  
Re: Brett C inquiry
I do feel that oxygen plays a significant role with this strain in particular, and that the secondary feeding anaerobically caused the acid production and slight funkiness. Whether it was the primary B.c or the secondary B.c added with the dextrin I don't know know.

This bug does perplex me.

BPotts
08/21/08 10:30 AM  
Re: Brett C inquiry
Indeed....

I will say that I still have two of my brett c & b beers sitting in secondary, the saison (which I added lacto too) and the golden barleywine, both of which are STILL quite clean and un-funked... Ihave a few bottles of the first I did which was very clean and IS very quite clean still...the other one I bottled (the berliner) i add fantome bugs to in the secondary and is so far the only funky one....so I'm willing to bet your secondary addition had a lot to do with the funk and acidity (just from experience...)

CDH
08/21/08 02:32 PM  
Re: Brett C inquiry
I've done a SteveG style berliner weiss fermented only with brett C, and it came out wonderfully tart. Low oxygenation, fermented in a keg so no O2 permeability, started in the 60s and allowed to climb to room temperature. A 2L+ starter was used.

I'm hoping to recreate the beer again soon. I'll report back on the results of round 2.

Al B
08/22/08 05:26 PM  
Re: Brett C inquiry
CDH,

Sounds consistant w/ Steves Berliner. Had a nice wheaty, sour taste. Oxygen makes a different beer w/ clausenii. Vinnie C. also says that Bretts behave differently with O2.

I remember early on some article where Tomme + Vinnie say to use a higher pitch.....well I over did it - with little O2 upon pitch after reading "wild Beers" and the potential of acetic acid production. So I ended up w/ pine-apple and sourness as a result. Now, using O2 and a reg. pitch, a clean fruity beer is found (as did others). Lastly I added fresh B.c. and dextrin to an anaerobic environment, and the sourness/funkyness developed quickly, but not pine-eapple.

Baums is right. A control should be used in the future. Baums, what precursors are responsible for creating citric acid as opposed to lactic acid? (i don't know if I'm making sense right now, I'm on Happy pour, I mean happy hour)). Same thing. :)))

Baums
08/22/08 05:58 PM  
Re: Brett C inquiry
Man, I have no idea...

But a cool thing to try would be to do two little one-pint batches in mason jars, with some excess wort/runnings. (Autoclave. Pitch equal size BC starters into each. Shake the hell out of one. See what's up in a month.)

CDH
08/22/08 06:31 PM  
Re: Brett C inquiry
Hmmm... I'm going to have to experiment with the oxygenation effects.

I've got the ingredients together for a duplicate berliner (though last time I used generic 2-row, and this time I've got proper Weyerman Pils)...

Perhaps I'll split between two fermenters, and hit one with lots of O2, and leave the other alone with little access to O2.

danger
08/23/08 05:40 PM  
Re: Brett C inquiry
i just did an all brett c the other day. after boil/chill i put 4.5g in a bucket and 1g in a 1g jug. the 4g got about a minute of o2, the 1g got none. i intended to blend them down at or near bottling time, but so far (~48hours) no activity :(
CDH
08/24/08 05:05 PM  
Re: Brett C inquiry
I've got a 2L Brett C starter ramped up and good to go... It's been essentially 3 bottles of Malta Goya and an equal quantity of water, first in a 1L seltzer bottle shaken several times a day, and then moved into a glass jug. It's been about a week and I just gave the starter a taste... tart and delicious, actually, even warm and flat.
Al B
08/25/08 07:47 AM  
Re: Brett C inquiry
danger -

B.clausenii is a notoriously slow Brett initially. It can take a couple of weeks to wake up from the refrigerated WL vial, therefore, a starter is recommended as a 100% fermentor. Was it pitched from the vial?

danger
08/25/08 08:57 AM  
Re: Brett C inquiry
as usual i spoke too soon. i woke up the morning after that post and it was chugging along.

fwiw, i did a step up starter from 1cup to 1qt over the course of a few weeks.

are b and l like this too? i was thinking of doing a 100% ferment with one or both of those.

Baums
08/25/08 10:50 AM  
Re: Brett C inquiry
For me, the strains of brux and lambicus I've messed with have all propped up just like sacc. Only the claussenii gave me problems, but those were solved by always propagating into continuously aerated media.
danger
08/25/08 06:47 PM  
Re: Brett C inquiry
so i brewed this beer thursday night. it eventually kicked off. now today after work i noticed the 1g jug has finally started fermenting, or at least kicked up some kind of head/krausen/pellicle.
BPotts
08/25/08 08:35 PM  
Re: Brett C inquiry
I wouldn't worry too much about the slow start - It took several days to start seeing any activity at all when I made my starter. But once you get a good amount it goes wild.

CDH
08/28/08 10:06 AM  
Re: Brett C inquiry
I've gotten my second iteration of the Brettliner Weiss into the fermenter yesterday, though I did not decide to do the split between O2 and no O2, because I want to see if the initial results are reproducible and not a fluke.

I also made a couple of modifications to the recipe pushing it in the direction of my Gose interest... a half ounce of coriander and a quarter pound of golden naked oats were added to the grain bill from last time around, and only the first runnings were boiled, the bulk of the runoff was only heated to 180 for 20 minutes. Also, the 2 quart Brett C. starter got dosed at the last minute with an ounce of 3068 slurry, to see how well Brett C and other distinctive yeast play together.

 
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