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korndog
07/31/08 11:16 AM  
Oud Bruin options
I would like to brew a Oud Bruin in the 1.070-1.080 range and am considering different approaches to fermentation. I have read of using Roeselare in the secondary with good results. Are there advanteges to adding the bugs individually rather than using the commercial blend? If so, what approach should be used as to order and variety? If using, Pedio, would one need to use Lacto as well? Is there a preferred strain of Brett that should be used with the Pedio? I realize some of this is dependant on what final product I am looking for, but am seeking some general advice as to process and ingredients.

Thanks

KD

SteveG
07/31/08 03:20 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin options
I'll comment on one simple level, having made a boatload of oud bruins I don't think carful timing of bacterial innoculation is important. The fact of the matter is that bugs require different time frames to do what they do. My first OB back in like '95 was fermented out with a normal ale yeast then I added wild bacteria after a week or two. But the wild bacteria would not have even gotten out of the gate in that time frame, so realistically all I accomplished was to open the fermentor unneccisarily.
korndog
07/31/08 04:20 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin options
Thanks for your response Steve.
SteveG
07/31/08 04:53 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin options
Oh, also I personally would avoid Brettanomyces Bruxelles

in an OB. I don't think they work really well as a funk monster.

korndog
07/31/08 05:02 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin options
So; may I be so bold as to ask what Brett strain you prefer? Actually, if you woudln't mind, I would love to know your preferred cocktail for OB's.

Thansk again!

Baums
07/31/08 05:57 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin options
"Are there advanteges to adding the bugs individually rather than using the commercial blend?"

Possibly, but I don't think they are very well known, much less agreed upon. Roeselare secondaries often make good beer, that much is clear (I have had good luck with it and so have many others).

FWIW I think Roeselare has pedio, WY b. lambicus, some sacc, and maybe WY lacto. To me the sacc and lacto are pretty expendible since you can get whatever sacc you want elsewhere (and in better-controlled quantity and health), and I do not think that lacto strain is very significant. Still, Roeselare is the cheapest way to get the pedio and the brett, and I don't think a precise pitch rate on those is critical to making good beer.

"If using, Pedio, would one need to use Lacto as well?"

My opinion is no--the pedio seems to be the stronger bug in my experience.

"Is there a preferred strain of Brett that should be used with the Pedio?"

Well, the one in Roeselare is good. I don't specifically know one that's bad. I agree with Steve that from what I've seen, at least some strains of b. brux can get a bit too crazy if you give them too much to work with.

korndog
07/31/08 10:16 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin options
Baums

Thanks for your thoughts. Very helpful.

KD

korndog
07/31/08 10:55 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin options
Another question please. I have noticed that most OB recipes I have seen do not use simple sugars, while many Dubbel recipes which are similar, do use them. Presumably this is because OB's tend to be in the 1.050 range for gravity. Would it be adviseable to add simple sugar to the boil or fermenter if shooting for a 1.075 beer? Also, does it help the bugs that might be pitched into a depleted sugar condition?

Thanks again!

SteveG
08/01/08 07:12 AM  
Re: Oud Bruin options
<<So; may I be so bold as to ask what Brett strain you prefer? Actually, if you woudln't mind, I would love to know your preferred cocktail for OB's.>>

Prior to my current sour red I would not have said Lambicus, but Al has sold me. Its a much more interesting strain than I had previously believed.

My most award winning OB though has no cocktail recipe. I fermented it out with a conventionmal ale yeast then opened it to my basement for 2 weeks with a cheese cloth-like cover. So it was semi-spontaneous.

I agree with Baums about Pedio. I think lacto can be hit of or miss.

>>Also, does it help the bugs that might be pitched into a depleted sugar condition?<<

Makes no difference. If you pitched everything together they would not wake up until the sugar was comparitively depleted anyway. Bacteria is far less picky than conventional yeast, so depleted for yeast is a banquet for bugs.

Mike T
08/01/08 08:48 AM  
Re: Oud Bruin options
Would it be adviseable to add simple sugar to the boil or fermenter if shooting for a 1.075 beer?

The sugar in a dubbel is to help dry it out, the bugs will take care of that for you. That said, the flavor of a less than simple sugar could compliment the beer well. I just did a really big Oud Bruin (~1.120) I used a half bottle of D2 Candi syrup in 3.5 gallons.

Baums
08/01/08 10:09 AM  
Re: Oud Bruin options
"Would it be adviseable to add simple sugar to the boil or fermenter if shooting for a 1.075 beer?"

This sort of begs the question "why are you shooting for a 1.075 beer?" What do you hope to accomplish by making it stronger than an average version?

If it's more maltiness, richness, or to make it a satisfying sipping beer, then sugar would be counterproductive and more malt is the way to go.

If you don't want those things, but you do want more alcohol and more esters from your primary yeast, or if 75 is your lucky number, then sugar might make some sense (however I don't think you'll actually get to keep those primary yeast esters because brett+age will rip them back out).

And if you don't want any of these things, then why not just brew at 1.055 or so?

korndog
08/01/08 12:04 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin options
"This sort of begs the question "why are you shooting for a 1.075 beer?"

Fair question - You answered it. While I enjoy the style in its typical form, I think it begs to made a little bigger and richer while still maintaining the essential characteristics. My pallete generally steers my experimentations with food and beer. Sometimes it works out brilliantly, and other times it's a dead end.

"why not just brew at 1.055 or so?"

I still might.

Thank you for your input.

SteveG
08/01/08 12:45 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin options
>>That said, the flavor of a less than simple sugar could compliment the beer well.<<

I don't think this can be completely ruled out, but in principle I would disagree here. I find that the bugs really ravage a wort, I have added sugar adjuncts to add flavors and I'm not so sure I can say that ever worked in terms of residual flavor.

>>If it's more maltiness, richness, or to make it a satisfying sipping beer, then sugar would be counterproductive and more malt is the way to go.<<

I have to disagree here as well on an aspect of this. I get why one might want more malty richness, but IMO neither more gravity or malt is the answer. That first OB I mentioned eariler was about 1080 and used honey (it was based of a recipe in the Belgian Ale Classic Style Series). When it was done it had no malt character or body. That's what a real oud bruin is. What threw me was at the time I thought a real oud bruin was typified by (pre Riva) Goudenband. Marvelous texture and malt balance. What I did not know at the time is the Liefmans did make an oud bruin and Goudenband was not it. Their actual OB was called "Liefman's Oud Bruin". I guessed why they would have that AND Goudenband, M. Jackson confirmed my suspicion. Goudenband was a blend.

If you want the benefits of a malty beer in your OB that, IMO, is the one and only answer. Make your OB, when its ready kill everything in there that lives and blend it with a young malty beer.

But Baums, I do agree with your main point - why not just brew at 1.055 indeed.

korndog
08/01/08 03:52 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin options
"But Baums, I do agree with your main point - why not just brew at 1.055 indeed."

In the context of blending, it seems like the logical thing to do. Do you know what was blended in the Goudenband or what you would use?

Thanks

KD

Baums
08/01/08 04:10 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin options
Steve--I am pretty ignorant when it comes to what an Oud Bruin sytlistically is or should be. I am only saying that if a guy wants more rich maltiness, grain is better than refined sugar.
SteveG
08/01/08 05:00 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin options
I don't actually know korndog, but I think its pretty likely they blended old with young. After seeing to it the bacteria in the old was inviable.
Mike T
08/01/08 05:01 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin options
"I don't think this can be completely ruled out, but in principle I would disagree here. I find that the bugs really ravage a wort, I have added sugar adjuncts to add flavors and I'm not so sure I can say that ever worked in terms of residual flavor."

This will be my first time using sugars in a true sour beer, but I have used them (including dark candi syrup) in Brett secondaried beers with good results. Sadly it will probably be 18 months before I can give much of an opinion on mine.

korndog
08/01/08 05:15 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin options
"I don't actually know korndog, but I think its pretty likely they blended old with young. After seeing to it the bacteria in the old was inviable."

Well, the Goudenband was 8% ABV, so I thought perhaps they used some kind of old-stock type beer. I suppose a high gravity younger beer could work nicely. I would be concerned blending, bottling and aging if there was still the possibility of further attenuation. I suppose the blend would be drank young unless one could be sure there was certain demise of the bugs in the base beer.

Again, thanks for all your help.

BPotts
08/01/08 05:47 PM  
Re: Oud Bruin options
I bottled up a high gravity bruin type beer a few months ago. I originally added pedio and lacto to the primary with charlie's cry havoc yeast and nothing much happened in terms of sourness or funk so I added a fantome bug starter a few months in. After some more age i checked the gravity over a couple of months and it seemed to have stabilized at around 1.025 - i should mention there was still a pellicle and the beer was nicely funked and soured....I had red in mind, but despite the bretty flavor the maltiness makes it taste more like a bruin (plus there was no oak aging). The beers have cleared perfectly in the bottle so I'm not too worried about over carbing... the fantome dregs don't seem to over attenuate in the bottle....
SteveG
08/02/08 06:14 AM  
Re: Oud Bruin options
Actually this brings to mind another way a malty OB could be made, take steps to exterminate all life in it prior to fermenting out. By and large that would be a pretty un-Belgian thing to do, with exceptions like Stille Nacht Belgian brewing heritage involves a lot of very well attenuated beer that still tastes malty. So I doubt this is the case with Goudenband but I don't think it can be ruled out.

Mike - don't be sad! My guess is you'll have all kinds of beer fun during the 18 month wait!

korndog
08/03/08 11:45 AM  
Re: Oud Bruin options
Working up the recipe now. My brew partner has D2 in the recipe, but I'm not clear on wheather this will translate in to additional flavor in the finished beer. I suppose it won't hurt to try. Can someone verify that the dark syrup carried in their beer?

Thanks again

KD

 
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