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B-Dub
08/26/08 12:23 AM  
Propigating WLP530 and sweet beer help
I just brewed a triple and quad about 3 weeks ago. For the starter I used 1000ml and one tube per 5.5 gallons. The Triple went to 1.012 and the quad stopped at 1.036. The carboys are in a heated fridge that got up to 82-84 by day 3. The Triple is 20% white sugar and the quad is 15% white and 15% Dark candi and Amber candi.

I repitched the quad with cal ale and nothing. Sweet beer!!

Does anyone think it was the yeast or the wort?

How do you guys build up from a tube for say a 2 x 5.5 gallon batch??

korndog
08/26/08 09:39 AM  
Re: Propigating WLP530 and sweet beer help
What was your OG for the quad? You probably need a 3-4 liter starter for that beer, at least.
Baums
08/26/08 10:12 AM  
Re: Propigating WLP530 and sweet beer help
First a few questions:

1. how did you make your starter? (aerate once, aerate continuously, shaking, stir plate, etc?)

2. what were the OG on these batches?

3. all grain or extract, and if all grain, what mash temp?

4. are you saying you split this 1000 mL starter between these two batches? Or one tube+starter for each 5.5G batch?

B-Dub
08/26/08 10:50 AM  
Re: Propigating WLP530 and sweet beer help

1. how did you make your starter? aerate once

2. what were the OG on these batches? triple 1.078 quad 1.094

3. all grain mashed at 147-149

4. are you saying you split this 1000 mL starter between these two batches? one tube+starter for each 5.5G batch

Seanywonton (Sean White)
08/26/08 10:52 AM  
Re: Propigating WLP530 and sweet beer help
Did you make a starter when you repitched the Cali yeast? to get a beer to re-ferment, the starter usually has to be at high krausen.

I agree, the starter size is just scraping by for the triple, and way low for the quad.

B-Dub
08/26/08 12:15 PM  
Re: Propigating WLP530 and sweet beer help
I used the 05 dry and just put it in the top of the fermenter. I have done this before and it worked great.

So would you make a 3-4 L starter for each of the 5.5s? That would be like a 4 gallon batch.

I might have to make a 5.5 of Blond next time and split it 4 ways.

How do you guys build up that much starter?

Baums
08/26/08 05:09 PM  
Re: Propigating WLP530 and sweet beer help
Let's look at the tripel. There are rules of thumb that will help make a good first guess at how much yeast is needed.

A common rule of thumb suggests 1 million yeast cells/mL/degreeP, which for your beer is 390 billion cells (let me know if you're not sure how to do that calculation). Brew Like a Monk states that Ommegang, for instance, follows this rule.

Some Belgian brewers might use half that, or even slightly less in rarer cases. Let's say 1/3 as a real minimum. That's 130 billion cells.

So rules of thumb suggest 130-390 B cells. How many cells did you pitch? White Labs says a tube has 70-140B cells in it (quite a big range). Plus you got your starter. Data I've seen suggests that a once-aerated starter like yours probably grows about 30B cells/L (a continuously aerated starter on a stir plate might get you ~100B/L). This is also roughly consistent with numbers on mrmalty.com. So you probably pitched 100-170 billion cells, kind of low by the rules of thumb but it might be fine.

These numbers are just guidelines--from there you have to adjust based on what you are tasting in your batches. For instance if your tripel tastes great, then by all means stick with this pitch rate. If it's a little solvently and/or banana-loaded, then next time just make a bigger starter--try to get to that 130B or even higher.

For the quad... the rules of thumb suggest 512 B cells (which you're nowhere near) or for a minimum, 170B cells. Given the amount you pitched, a stuck ferment is not all that surprising.

Adding dry yeast directly is not likely to help much since it doesn't rehydrate well in what's already a very strong beer. I think your best chance to get more attenuation is to make a strong (say 6% abv) starter using 1-2 packs of rehydrated US-05 and pitch that into your beer at high krausen. Still iffy though.

Note that you need a lot of aeration especially if you're doing single-aerated starters--you're wearing the yeast down in that starter (using up some of its reproduction potential) and more air is needed to "recharge" it.

petec
08/26/08 07:47 PM  
Re: Propigating WLP530 and sweet beer help
Based on your gravity and the results of the triple with all those easily fermentable sugars, you definitely were in underpitch land. I'd expect to see it go to <1.008 especially with your nice low mash temp and the 20-30% sugars. Or atleast thats how low my belgians go even when not pushing the ferment temps.

For beers of these sizes, I just find it easier to brew a smaller beer ahead of time and use the slurry, instead of going the starter route. I just get better results and no sweet beer.

Anything over about 1.060, I use a slurry. Anything under about 1.050 I use a tube or pouch.

I'd agree with needing to properly get that 05 dry rehydrated. All that alcohol and no O2 is a tough growth medium.

cheers petec

korndog
08/26/08 09:21 PM  
Re: Propigating WLP530 and sweet beer help
Here's a good read from a member of my club, Maribeth Raines. Lots of good information here on yeast culturing.

http://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/MB_Raines_Guide_to_Yeast_Culturing.php

B-Dub
08/27/08 06:54 PM  
Re: Propigating WLP530 and sweet beer help
I just built up a 1250ml starter and at high krausen added it to the Quad.

Thanks for everyones advice on this. I appreciate it.

I am brewing more Belgium brews after my normal ale beers are out of the pipeline from tomorrow's brew.

Thanks again.

B-Dub
08/29/08 07:58 PM  
Re: Propigating WLP530 and sweet beer help
Just an up date. There is some fermentation happening from the addtition of the starter. Small bubbles on the surface and some airlock activity.

Let's just say the beer stays fairly sweet. Could I dose it with Brett and see the sugar go away over time and have a nice sour beer? I have never added bugs on purpose!

Thanks.

B-Dub
09/13/08 08:10 PM  
Re: Propigating WLP530 and sweet beer help
Well the beer got down to 1.030 and tasted on the leeward side of poor. I am sad to say this was one of those times that age could not fix and it meet the drain. Sad to see it go, but now I can try again.

Next week the plan is to brew two, 5.5 gallon, 1.050 Golden Belgium beers with WLP 530 and split the cake into a second try at a quad with the D2.

Heres to a dry ferment!

BPotts
09/14/08 12:21 PM  
Re: Propigating WLP530 and sweet beer help
How come you decided not to add some brett to finish it out?
tankdeer
09/14/08 02:45 PM  
Re: Propigating WLP530 and sweet beer help
+1

That's what I would have done. But I'm a bit brett happy. ;-)

B-Dub
09/14/08 06:58 PM  
Re: Propigating WLP530 and sweet beer help
I think my temps got to high in the first 48 hours and created some fusel alcohols that were unpleasant. If a beer shows some signs of promise I'll work with it. This one was just on the other side of the fence for me.

I love brett beers myself and plan on getting some going in the next few months.

BPotts
09/14/08 11:42 PM  
Re: Propigating WLP530 and sweet beer help
I tempered a very fusel-y high grav beer with brett + aging last year....just so you know for the next time. You never know it might have turned into something wonderful.
SteveG
09/15/08 10:12 AM  
Re: Propigating WLP530 and sweet beer help
I only skimmed the thread, B-Dub, when you say your temps got to high are you referring to the 82-84 mentioned in the top post? If so I think you can rule out a hot ferment as a culpret, Belgians can go notably higher than that.
B-Dub
09/15/08 03:23 PM  
Re: Propigating WLP530 and sweet beer help
SteveG,

My temps got up to the middle 70's after 24 hours and by 48 was in the low 80's. I would have liked to hold the temp down until day 2 before the ramp up. That with a low pitch rate could have been the problem.

BPotts, nice to know about a little brett and some time. Thanks!

 
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