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Author Replies
WitSok
01/19/09 09:45 PM  
Saison Yeasts
I haven't used all of the saison yeast yet, but I have used most of them.

My favorite has been the Farmhouse ale #3726. It is like 3724/WLP565 on steroids. Extreamely fruit and spicy (phenolic). Best of all, it has never stalled out. 3724/565 has a great aroma and flavor but is too finicky.

I've used 3711 a couple times. Nice pepper phenols, but the fruity esters are more subdued than I like. Perhaps I'm fermenting this yeast too cool. I do get a nice rosey like fusel character in the finish. Overall, I found that I like it better in my dark saison. Very similar yeast character, but it played well off the roast notes.

I just used 3725 biere de garde for the first time. So I cannot comment on my results. However, I did try a beer made by another with this yeast. It was fairly clean, ie no phenolic notes. It was fruity, but not extremely fruity. Somewhere between an abbey ale yeast and European ale. Like its name, it seems like it would make a good BdG. Maybe a bit too much character for comps, but the least amount of stuff going on compareed to 3726 and 3724.

What is your favorite saison yeast? I'm definately Farmhouse.

Baums
01/20/09 10:03 AM  
Re: Saison Yeasts
I am still looking for the yeast that best fits my taste when pitched into wort in the low 70s (as cool as I can easily get it in the heat of summer).

The main thing I want to avoid is any clove or gumball flavor like you can get with WY3522 or even WLP500. You say 3726 is extremely spicy--does it have any clove to it?

Have you tried WLP Saison II?

Al B
01/20/09 11:30 AM  
Re: Saison Yeasts
Baums,

WL Saison II had bubblegum notes if I recall correctly.

3725 would probably be your best bet at that temp. range, but it won't be very spicy either.

Doesn't mashing at a certain temp. create more ferulic acid (a precursor to clove phenolics) - maybe avoid that mash step if so.

ErikH
01/20/09 12:47 PM  
Re: Saison Yeasts
I have been pleased with the results of the WY3711 recently in a dark saison, although I think some excessive spicing is currently overwhelming most of the yeast character.

And, per the recent Saison swap, I am very eager to try 3726 soon. I think I'm done with WY3724/WL565 for the time being.

Hey, Al - if your offer still holds, I think I would in fact like to send you a sample of my recent SD clone attempt with it so you could see if there are any other critters contributing to some off flavors?

Baums
01/20/09 03:05 PM  
Re: Saison Yeasts
Thanks Al.

I avoid the ferulic rest temps--but of course you can still get a lot of 4VG anyway with the right/wrong yeast.

Funny thing... I really like 3787 and don't notice a lot of clove in it, even though Wyeast's gas chromatography experiments (summarized in BLAM, and some harder data was on the BJCP site for a while) showed 3787 is a big 4VG producer. Not sure how to make sense of that, except that it's also a big producer of a lot of other stuff and maybe there's some masking.

WitSok
01/20/09 08:56 PM  
Re: Saison Yeasts
No clove. I find 3726 Farmhouse to produce strong peppery notes that are classic saison character. As for the esters, I get mainly citrus: orange and lemon like. 3711 seems to be the best attenuator of the bunch.

For the 3726, I try to start the fermentation at 80F and raise to 84F over four day. Then I lower the temperature on degree every two days.

For the 3711, I have started at 65F and raised to 77F over a six day period and then ramp back down. These seemed to be the favorable range reported earlier on this board. Perhaps I should try it higher.

Currently I'm fermenting the 3725 biere de garde. I started at 70F and ramping up 3F per day till I reach 82F. 82F is the reported primary fermentation temp for Fantome according to Farmhouse Ales.

B-Dub
01/21/09 01:15 AM  
Re: Saison Yeasts
For the 3725 I went straight to 90 after 12-24 hours. Cisco made this recommendation for this yeast and I have some great beer on tap to prove this works really well.
WitSok
01/21/09 08:00 AM  
Re: Saison Yeasts
<<Have you tried WLP Saison II?>> Nope. Anyone else?
Cisco
01/21/09 10:00 AM  
Re: Saison Yeasts
WLP Saison II - it gets way too phenolic at proper elevated saison fermentation temps. I don't care for it.
DBear
01/21/09 03:01 PM  
Re: Saison Yeasts
Baums,

At what temps are you getting "clove or gumball flavor.." from WY3522. I'm looking to do a grisette with 3522 starting ferment at 66F and finishing at 74F.

-Cheers

WitSok
01/21/09 08:56 PM  
Re: Saison Yeasts
<<it gets way too phenolic at proper elevated saison fermentation temps>> What type of phenolics? Pepper? Clove?
Rob B
01/21/09 11:49 PM  
Re: Saison Yeasts
So DBear, after doing some googling I guess that a grisette is a small saison. Looks like they are mostly pils and wheat. may I ask what your grainbill is?

Very interesting, I have never heard of grisette before. I see that St. Feuillien has four versions.

Al B
01/22/09 07:03 AM  
Re: Saison Yeasts
Erik,

<<I think I would in fact like to send you a sample of my recent SD clone attempt with it so you could see if there are any other critters contributing to some off flavors?>>

Sure, it'll be easy. A sample w/ some sediment or dregs will be best bet to detect any contaminants.

Al Bug

DBear
01/22/09 08:00 AM  
Re: Saison Yeasts
Rob B,

I found the description and recipe in Phil Markowski's "Farmhouse Ales" and it sounds like the kind of session beer I'm looking for. Straight forward recipe with room for experimentation.

Farmhouse Ales Recipe:

OG: 1044

75% Pils

25% Wheat

(Option: Unmalted Wheat upto 5%)

(Option: Sugar for dryness upto 5%)

Bittering hops: hallertauer 16-18 IBU

Late hops (15-20 min):Styrian Goldings 16 grams

Finish hops: (2 min"):12grams

Ferment: 70-74F, WLP550 or WY3522, secondary - 60-70F 2wks

Comments: "this recipe is intended to produce a light, refreshing, lightly-hopped golden ale with classic Belgian yeast characteristics."

-Cheers

Baums
01/22/09 02:59 PM  
Re: Saison Yeasts
WitSok: Thanks--lemon/orange sounds good to me, 3726 sounds like a good one to try.

DBear: I got more clove and other phenolics than I wanted when I pitched WY3522 at 76F and fermented there, in two 1.050 beers. There was also a bubblegum note. BTW it's widely repeated that an ester rather than a phenol is what contributes bubblegum flavor--I wonder if that's true or not. Depending which it is, there may be different ways to enhance/avoid it. Lately it seems I only really notice it in beers that also have phenolics that I find objectionable.

Rob B
01/22/09 09:33 PM  
Re: Saison Yeasts
Thanks DBear, I have that book but I guess I have only skimmed it. I believe I will reread that one. I am very much into brewing Belgians lately and I will give the grisette a try. I have a couple of Belgian table beers(a pale and a red) I want to brew also. I love the 3522 for most of my lighter colored belgians. I typically start it around 66F and let it ramp up to about 72F. Gives me the yeast character I am really looking for.
DBear
01/23/09 09:36 PM  
Re: Saison Yeasts
Thanks Rob B and Baums,

I do mostly belgians and now that I have temp control - Ranco - I am starting to get the results from the yeast i was hoping foor.

 
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