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Author Replies
manticle
09/06/10 04:24 AM  
Re: Bottle condtioning questions
I mean prior to priming and bottling/kegging (so adding CO2 back by adding priming sugar or force carbing).

In cold temps, the residual CO2 will be absorbed back into solution. When allowed to warm it will dissipate, unless in a completely sealed container like a bottle (most carboys make allowances for the release of CO2.

Thus if yeast has finished fermenting/eating sugar (or come very close to) it is not producing any significant amount of carbon dioxide. If the CO2 is not absorbed back in due to cold temps, it will be released, never to be seen again. That's why if you have a brew at 2 degrees but it sat at 23 degrees (celsius sorry - I'm Australian) for three days after reaching FG, then 23 is the temp for your calculations, not 2 (or faranheit equivalent).

Obviously by priming you can encourage the yeast to make more CO2 but that's exactly what we're trying to calculate.

Sometimes the difference is negligible (just calculated the difference between my first sour at 20 degrees C and 28 C and there was an 8 gram difference in priming sugar amounts to hit 2.4 vol. The scale will obviously increase though.

manticle
09/06/10 05:57 AM  
Re: Bottle condtioning questions
I mean prior to priming and bottling/kegging (so adding CO2 back by adding priming sugar or force carbing).

In cold temps, the residual CO2 will be absorbed back into solution. When allowed to warm it will dissipate, unless in a completely sealed container like a bottle (most carboys make allowances for the release of CO2.

Thus if yeast has finished fermenting/eating sugar (or come very close to) it is not producing any significant amount of carbon dioxide. If the CO2 is not absorbed back in due to cold temps, it will be released, never to be seen again. That's why if you have a brew at 2 degrees but it sat at 23 degrees (celsius sorry - I'm Australian) for three days after reaching FG, then 23 is the temp for your calculations, not 2 (or faranheit equivalent).

Obviously by priming you can encourage the yeast to make more CO2 but that's exactly what we're trying to calculate.

Sometimes the difference is negligible (just calculated the difference between my first sour at 20 degrees C and 28 C and there was an 8 gram difference in priming sugar amounts to hit 2.4 vol. The scale will obviously increase though.

manticle
09/06/10 06:07 AM  
Re: Bottle condtioning questions
Just typed a detailed response which got eaten by the internet.

What I mean is that once the yeast has stopped eating fermentable material, it will stop producing carbon dioxide. If the brew is kept cold or in a pressure rated, sealed container, the carbon dioxide will remain in solution. If allowed to warm and there is any way for it to be released into the atmosphere, it will dissipate and not return.

Therefore any temperature on the warm side after the yeast has stopped producing CO2 is going to encourage CO2 to come out of solution (and presumably into the atmosphere unless your carboy is airtight.

When priming this needs to be taken into consideration. For many brews the difference is negligible but if brewing a lager at 8 degrees (celsius - I'm Australian) and raising to 20 deg for a diacetyl rest, then dropping back to 2 degrees for lagering, 2 degrees won't be the bottling temp.

for sours brewed at ambient temps, the brew might spend a while at [eg] 24 in hotter months so even if you cold conditioned at 2, the bottling priming calc should be based on the 24 (provided that 24 occurred after primary ferment was complete and wasn't just a quick spike).

Hope that makes sense.

manticle
09/06/10 06:08 AM  
Re: Bottle condtioning questions
Sorry for the multiple posts - don't know what happened. Happy for a moderator to delet
tom sawyer
09/07/10 08:21 AM  
Re: Bottle condtioning questions
I think its the highest temp reached after ferm has more or less ceased. As long as CO2 is being evolved, there is going to be saturation at whatever temp its running. Only once you get to the end of the fermentation, will the max temp effect apply.
manticle
09/07/10 08:30 AM  
Re: Bottle condtioning questions
Pretty much what I was getting at except you did it in one line and I took two long winded posts.
tom sawyer
09/07/10 09:18 AM  
Re: Bottle condtioning questions
Sorry about that, I didn't see the thread had gone to two pages.
DBear
09/07/10 05:59 PM  
Re: Bottle condtioning questions

So if fermenation ends and you are 73F then CC to 34 for a week it would be optimal to let the beer warm to 73F for bottling?

Cisco
09/07/10 06:30 PM  
Re: Bottle condtioning questions
Yes, that would be optimal.
manticle
09/07/10 06:42 PM  
Re: Bottle condtioning questions
Alternatively just adjust the priming rate for that temperature - allowing things to warm back up can (so I've been told) put back into solution some of the things you've tried to drop out with CC
tom sawyer
09/07/10 10:05 PM  
Re: Bottle condtioning questions
I don't think the yeast will be active at 34F though will it? If you cold crash and "stuff" settles out you ought to be able to rack off and get it away from the beer.
manticle
09/07/10 11:00 PM  
Re: Bottle condtioning questions
Depends on how long you CC for.

I usually rack for secondary fermentation (talking about sacch beers here) and cold condition for around a week. There's enough yeast left in suspension to carb my beers.

It does seem a little counter-intuitive to go through processes to remove yeast and then be putting it back in although in cases of long term lagering it's probably a good idea. I won't pretend to be an expert on it - i know what I've read and what I've experienced but with all things brewing there's more than one method and more than one reasoning.

I'll be adding a touch of new yeast to my sours when they are about to get bottled.

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