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Schlenkerla
03/16/09 04:19 PM  
1st Wild Yeast Brew
Hello,

I'm new to this board. Just tried to capture some wild yeast on a slant and I'm looking for info about wild yeasts.

Are all wild yeasts a form of Brett (C,B,L)?

What do they look like on a slant?

Here are some pics of what I caught on agar. (See Link)

Right now it smells tart, fruity a little sour, no farm or barnyard smell at all.

What are some good web sources for this?

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/howto-capture-wild-yeast-101886/index9.html

SteveG
03/16/09 04:46 PM  
Re: 1st Wild Yeast Brew
>>Are all wild yeasts a form of Brett (C,B,L)?<<

I usually defer to our bug experts on this stuff, but I feel pretty comfortable saying that brett is just one of many species of micro organism.

>>What do they look like on a slant?<<

Hit google, select "images" on the upper left and search for "brettanomyces". There are loads of images at varying levels of magnification.

SteveG
03/16/09 04:48 PM  
Re: 1st Wild Yeast Brew
This doesn't help for the look of brett on slant, but take a look at the fermentation vessel at work here, interesting!

http://resipsaloquitur.auburnbrewclub.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/CIMG1550.JPG

SteveG
03/16/09 05:07 PM  
An interesting note on Brett C
On the same site as that odd, vase-like fermentor he describes his experience with growing brett C. Clearly his results were not the same as ours. From reading the account, I think what he missed was the way he fed it O2. He used a loose lid, and with the fermentor just covered it with foil to let in O2 where Al has used a tank to blow O2 directly into the growing colony. What a difference!!
Ryan
03/16/09 07:11 PM  
Re: 1st Wild Yeast Brew
Beyond just other microorganisms (bacteria, etc...) there are plenty of other yeast genera as well.

Moniliella, Schizosach, Candida, Trichosporonoides are some. The abundances of these vs. brett may depend on how much beer you've spilled in your house. My basement is probably all Brett.

:)

Ben Connery
03/16/09 09:09 PM  
Re: 1st Wild Yeast Brew
Not all wild yeasts are Brett and not all are in any way desirable in your brew...

I've had some troubles with wild yeast getting into my brews in the past, and in the last few batches particularly and they results are in no way lambic like.

Tart, fruity and sour in an off way, heading then to medicinal over time would be one description.

You can get kind infections, a mate of mine had a wit that got infected and it worked amazingly, but most wild yeasts have a pretty ordinary result in your beer...

Baums
03/17/09 10:02 AM  
Re: 1st Wild Yeast Brew
> Are all wild yeasts a form of Brett (C,B,L)?

As others have said, definitely not.

However, a very good reference book ("Brewing Yeast and Fermentation" by Boulton+Quain) notes academic studies have shown saccharomyces is the only yeast that can ferment and grow anaerobically at a reasonably high rate. Note this does not mean just nice brewing strains of saccharomyces cerevisiae, but also a bunch of nasty, phenolic, potentially superattenuating saccs as well.

I'm not sure how to reconcile that claim with the brett-only beers brewed by people on this board. Certainly the study authors wouldn't have prepared their brett in the same way or pitched them into a nice saison wort. At any rate it seems like a decent bet that any yeast that you can get to perform a fast anaerobic ferment is probably a sacc or brett.

> What do they look like on a slant?

A whole lot of them look like in your picture. And I think a whole lot of them will grow on malt agar.

> What are some good web sources for this?

Web sources for what? If you're after information on identifying wild yeasts I'm not sure there are any. On an academic level, with a lab and relevant reagents, etc, "The Yeasts: A Taxonomic Study" is a book that details how to do so. On a hobby level maybe the first step would be to see if it can ferment some wort anaerobically, and to what attenuation? And if possible, to look at the thing through a microscope? Those two things should help narrow it down quite a bit.

ChadYak
03/21/09 10:47 AM  
Re: 1st Wild Yeast Brew
hmmm.. Going from the info laid by Baums, the authors from "Brewing Yeast and Fermentation" never worked with Brettanomyces.. I know this as I now am working with Brett and David Quain is my Masters supervisor for the research...

As for what it looks like on slopes and various media petri dishes.. http://brettanomyces.blogspot.com/ that has about everything your looking for and will have about 12 different or potentially different strains of Brettanomyces spp soon.

The only way to identify is to do PCR-RE.. There are 4 strains of Brettanomyces spp. B. bruxellensis, B. anomalus, B. nanus, B nardensis.. B. bruxellensis and B. anomalus are the "brewing species" Labs tend to call them by "strain" names given to them in the 1900-1970's.. Many of those Brettanmoyces have now been reclassified as Dekkera by the taxonomists.

As for wild yeast.. Anything you don't pitch is a wild yeast including a hole range of various Saccharomyces cerevisiae subspecies..

For differentiating under a microscope it will be hard if it was caught out of the air. You need to do serial dillutions and pipette out onto various plates and streak with single colonies then identify with PCR or you can pay 300 dolars for the The Yeasts: A Taxonomic Study. Otherwise check out the Brett masters project as ferementations have just started and will be updated with lots of useful information for homebrewers as it has them in mind also.. Lots of the old data is inacurate and research like sugar consumption will be re-done along with pitch rates temperatures to ferment at and what oxygen levels produce what compounds along with just general Brett fermentation knowledge

Chad

Baums
03/23/09 10:06 AM  
Re: 1st Wild Yeast Brew
> hmmm.. Going from the info laid by Baums, the authors

> from "Brewing Yeast and Fermentation" never worked with

> Brettanomyces.. I know this as I now am working with

> Brett and David Quain is my Masters supervisor

That's awesome Chad.

I hope I didn't imply that Boulton and Quain actually DID the research I mentioned--rather, their book cites this study that was done by a different group. Without having read the study in detail, I don't know whether or not all-brett beers are in contradiction to its results, but it's interesting that they might be. I'll have to look it up again.

Schlenkerla
04/04/09 01:18 PM  
Re: 1st Wild Yeast Brew
Hey - Thanks for all of your help. Just an update to my wild wheat beer experiment... I used the slant to step up 50, 250, 1000mls. Let it grow for a week on the stir plate. I thinking it could have been OK to do it a lot longer.

Anyhow I pitched it into a wheat beer with 15IBUs and OG of 1.051 It took off quickly with a slow steady ferment for about 5 days and stopped flat for 3 days and then fired back-up with a very fast ferment.

The first ferment was like wine, no krausen just bubbles. The second ferment had a thin 1/2" brown-like krausen with lots of big an small bubbles. The 2nd ferment went about 4 days and has stopped.

Question: Should I let this sit on the yeast cake for awhile or should I rack to a secondary. It has a good 1" layer of sediment in the fermentor right now.

FYI - The CO2 smells have been fruity with a touch of sour. Shortly after its stopped I noticed a vomit like smell but can't say its emanating from the airlock.

Thanks again!

 
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