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tripel beam
03/21/09 03:13 AM  
tripel
I'm looking to make a tripel on Sunday with WL575. I had a DMS problem the last time I tried to do make a tripel (I think because of under-pitching, too cool of a ferment, or slow wort chilling).

I made a 1 Liter starter this afternoon and pitched to 1.050 (DME malt) and plan to step it up to 1/1.5gal. by Sunday (Is this a reasonable time frame?). I will be putting heat on this batch shortly before reaching high krausen (peak 78-82?). Also, I have no wort chiller and I'm open to suggestions for rapidly getting my beer out of the 120+ range for DMS.

Is there any other advice anyone has to ensure this beer does not become a dissappointment? I want this beer to be floral and estery, with good attenuation, crisp and dry to the taste. Thanks in advance.

SteveG
03/21/09 07:48 AM  
Re: tripel
Sounds like you like triples just like I do. I like them simple, something like Watou or Bernardus triples. Very down to Earth. But until you have a well defined and proven method for making the triple you want there is no insurance against disappointment. Actually I have a triple right now that finally, after years or experimenting, is just the triple I've wanted to make. So many OK but off-target beers, I finally went back to basics, stopped trying to find some previously undiscovered secret for making the perfect triple, and there it was.

The only way I know to rapidly cool with no chiller involves a lot of stirring and splashing. When homebrewing was just starting to get big this was the recommennded method, the problem then is hot side aeration. Recently I found I have gotten lazy when it comes chilling time. Beers I've made over the last several months were cooled by putting a sealed bucket of wort outside for 8ish hours. My current triple that I'm finally happy with was cooled that way. I would do either that or buy a wort chiller.

BPotts
03/21/09 09:12 AM  
Re: tripel
Use an ice bath....before I got my chiller that worked just fine. In fact, it probably takes just as long to chill a batch of beer with my wort chiller as it does just letting it sit in ice. The only benefit is not having to buy ice every time.... unfortunately I was a little late in buying it and have only brewed one or two batches of beer since I got it months ago.... :/
Al B
03/21/09 09:41 AM  
Re: tripel
First off, make sure you have a long vigorous boil. A weak boil may not decompose the precursor of DMS and drive it off to begin with.

Then follow Steve/Ben to chill. Lastly a weak fermentation (underpitch, unhealthy yeast, etc.) may also contribute as you mention, as well as, contamination.

tripelbeam
03/21/09 11:10 PM  
Re: tripel
Thanks for the advice. I will be doing a standard ice bath and try a more vigorous boil. My starter (1L) is bubbling, but definitely not krausening up. I'm probably being impatient, but I wanted to step it up to 4L or so by tomorrow for pitching, and I don't think it needs more wort at this point.

Should I airate this more (I hit it with 12-15sec. pure O2 twicebefore ptching the slant). What are your procedures for airation with pure O2?

ChadYak
03/22/09 10:22 AM  
Re: tripel
tripelbeam...

If your growing up the yeast for pitching you can keep hitting it with oxygen as much as you like.. Sacch is an anaerobic fermenter. If you keep giving it oxygen and keep elevated temps around 28-30 celcius will suffice you will keep its cell biomass production up and it wont kick over to fermenting so much. So if your looking for biomass production (higher cell counts) give it O2 periodically some shaking and elevated temps...

As for stepping it up so large.. why? If your doing a standard 5 gallon brew (18.9 litres) and say it is a 1.080 starting gravity (19.5 Plato) pitch 20% higher as it is a high gravity brew you need to pitch 1.2*10^6*19.5*18,900= 4.42*10^11 cells you need to pitch.

I have found that a 1.040 starter at 1 Litre will have 9.6*10^12 cells total. (I just looked on friday at a Saison starter counted cell counts, did a viability count too was at 99-98%).. That is after about 3-4 days at 28 degrees C on a stir plate or in my case in an orbital incubator. So even if you pitched 20% higher (already taken into my calculation) which is recommended on a high gravity brew. You have more cells then you need in a 1 litre starter.

I know that your conditions may be different and strains grow at different rates, but this should be rather accurate information.. You can tweak my assumptions to fit you actualy brew.. Are you using WLP530?

As for DMS look and ask about the specifications on your malt. As I'm guessing your using pilsner malt, this is something to remember that pilsner and lager malts will have higher DMS levels due to lower kilning temperatures. If you got a batch which has a higher DMS level then you you previously had you should adjust for a longer more vigorous boil let the evaporation happen and adjust in your calculations. This is the best way to assure you don't get a DMS bomb.

ChadYak
03/22/09 10:25 AM  
Re: tripel
I should clarify not all will be exactly 9.6*10^12 but should be some where in the ballpark around some number*10^12.. This is what I have found.
tripelbeam
03/22/09 12:50 PM  
Re: tripel
Thanks ChadYak

I'm using WL 575. I usually use Bamberg Pils.

tripelbeam
03/22/09 01:13 PM  
Re: tripel
The reason for building a starter, was to ensure I have a clean strong fermentation (no DMS or sluggishness). Also, I figured with the ABV (1.080) I would need some kind of a starter. I was probably overshooting the size with 1 gal.

Did I understand you right that if there is no krausen the yeast are building up, but not converting sugars? The starter is still not krausening and I'm approaching 18hrs.

BPotts
03/22/09 04:21 PM  
Re: tripel
tripel - DMS is primarily a problem relating to malt, not yeast. In Radical Brewing it states in DMS results "in extreme cases, from a slow yeast start or contamination." I have had plenty of slower yeast starts and never any DMS. Conversely, I've fermented trippels with less yeast and have not had a problem with attenuation or DMS. So I'd have to assume you're either not boiling enough or your starter was contaminated. Do you boil with the lid on your kettle? That will result in the DMS dropping right back into the beer instead of driving it off into the atmosphere with an open boil.
DBear
03/22/09 09:27 PM  
Re: tripel

I have a 1.080 tripel using 575 in secondary right now. I piched two vials in 2L and pitched the yeast into 66F wort with final temp at 72F.

It seems to be a slow starter, more than 18hrs after piching yeast before krausen. I shook it at around 20-22hrs and it woke up and started pumping. I added 2.3lb of cane surgar as planned to the ferment at about three days and it blew out the airlock. Gravity at 7 days 1.030 gave it a shake and at 9days 1.021, shake and at 11days 1.013. Over three days dropped and stayed at 1.009 and put it secondary crashing to 45F.

I was suprised by the high gravity at 7 days and was afraid it was stuck. Shaking 2 times a day kept it going but I suspect it would have eventualy hit my desired FG by itself.

I always boil high percents of pils for 90 minutes. I have other problems sometimes but DMS has not been one of them.

-Cheers

tripel beam
03/23/09 02:18 AM  
Re: tripel
Dbear, Have you used this yeast much before? 2L starter (with 2 vials) for a 5gsl batch I'm assuming? That is more than what I ended up pitching by 50% or more.

Potts, I do not boil with the lid on, today I did go a little more vigorous and longer (1.5hrs) today.

My gravity was higher than expected 1.10 and I watered back to 1.090. I might water back some more depending on what it does at 3 days or so.

Seanywonton
03/23/09 09:32 AM  
Re: tripel
I would encourage you to invest in an immersion chiller if you are a doing a full wort boil! It's the best way to get below 120 quickly.

DMS reduction is way more dependant on boil time / vigor, and chilling time, than it is on fermentation vigor. I think fermentation is only a minor reducer of DMS.

Baums
03/23/09 10:19 AM  
Re: tripel
DMS is produced way faster when the temp is higher, and so the initial part of the chilling is disproportionately important in that regard. A good way to very quickly chill that first 20-30 degrees is probably to actually put ice in the wort--either in a very well sanitized container that can take the heat/cold, or else putting sterile ice itself directly into the wort (and calculating things like boil gravity to account for this). I certainly wouldn't bother with all of this unless you're having routine DMS troubles, of course.

---

Chad: Maybe I'm reading wrong or there's a typo or something, but 9.6*10^12 cells in 1 liter of propagation wort is about 30X higher than the highest number I've seen reported (300B cells/L)!

DBear
03/23/09 10:38 AM  
Re: tripel
tripel beam:

This is my first time using this yeast. It seems slow but steady and does attenuate down (1.080 to 1.009 - ~9.5 ABV). This was over 14 days with swirling the carboy twice daily to go from 1.030 to 1.009 (last 5 days). Pitching at 66F and holding for 48 hours before ramping to 72F still kicked out alc but not harsh.

I belive the starter was plenty big but in general I am rethinking my pitching rates. See this thread - http://www.babblebelt.com/newboard/thread.html?tid=1108752780&th=1236108270&pg=1&tpg=1&add=1

 
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