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Author Replies
B-Dub
07/11/09 12:03 PM  
Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture
I want to prop some Lacto/ Pedio and maintain the culture.

I understand that temps around 90 in a low gravity wort is key. Does anyone know how long it would take to reach max cell count in a 1/2 gallon jar of 1.020 wort at 90 deg?

My plan is to prop enough lacto and pedio to pitch into some batches and keep enough back to continue the strains for future use.

Any ideas?

Al B
07/12/09 11:28 AM  
Re: Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture
B-Dub

Temps are not THAT important to propagate Lactic bacteria unless you're makin' yogurt. You will do fine anywhere from 70-80F in a 1030-1040 wort without aeration 2-3 days. I would keep the two bugs separate if possible.

Is there a specific purpose for a max cell count? I ask this only because I am currently propagating Lactobacilli to a specific population for a Berliner batch.

Al Bacillus

B-Dub
07/12/09 01:21 PM  
Re: Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture
Al B,

I have two friends that know the process used at RRBC. They say after the neutral yeast is finished the beer is racked off the yeast and the brett is added. After a few weeks a huge population of lacto/pedio is added.

From what they stated the huge pitch of bugs help shorten the length of time the beer needs to "finish." This does not necessarily mean the beer is at it's peek flavor quicker, but insures a quick souring.

So my idea is to hit the 20 gallons I have with bretts next week and follow that with a big population of the bugs a few weeks after that.

Because it is a hassle to acquire the latco/pedio; i.e. mail order and $$$, I would like to hold some of the bugs back and keep them for future sours.

My plan is definitely to keep them separate. I know some breweries only use latco to sour and I would like to try that myself.

So do you think holding say 100mls back of the bugs, adding some low gravity wort to it, letting them grow to good numbers and cooling would allow for storage?

Al B
07/12/09 04:51 PM  
Re: Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture
<<So do you think holding say 100mls back of the bugs, adding some low gravity wort to it, letting them grow to good numbers and cooling would allow for storage? >>

Yes, but I highly recomend yeast nutrients of some kind for long storage in low gravity wort. This is in line for long-term yeast storage as well(not frozen in glycerine).

I totally agree w/ keeping Lactic bacteria (quite $$ indeed) and yeah, RR can't put out enough sours time permitting, so I see the point of high pitch there (as well as low gravity beers such as Berliner).

Once again, use some extra nutrients and they will keep well refrige (33 - 34F best). Good luck.

Josh G
07/13/09 02:49 PM  
Re: Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture
I have a lacto culture using the process Al B describes. I should be using some in the next few weeks.
Joelle
07/13/09 03:14 PM  
Re: Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture
"I am currently propagating Lactobacilli to a specific population for a Berliner batch."

Hey Al, how big of a starter are you using to grow your Lactobacilli to the right population for your Berliner? Are you only using Lactobacilli, or are you using something else as well?

I pitched equal amounts of Lactobacilli and White Labs German Ale yeast in the last 5 gallon no boil Berliner we tried and now after 1.5 months it is only mildly tart. The starter was 800 ml on a stir plate for 18 hours with a tube each of the Lacto and German Ale added to it. After main fermentation was done we put it in a keg with an airlock on it. There's also a little bit of a strange aroma, possibly DMS. Wonder if the no boil caused that. Anyone know if that will dissipate over time?

Joelle

B-Dub
07/13/09 04:08 PM  
Re: Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture
Joelle,

Did you put the lacto on the stir plate? From Wyeast it sounds like growing it up without aeration is slightly better for lacto and pedio.

Does this sounds right Al?

Joelle
07/13/09 04:36 PM  
Re: Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture
Yeah, I put both strains in the same 800ml starter on the stir plate for about 18 hours. Based on this thread we discussed it here and Pedio was the one that really doesn't like aeration.

http://www.babblebelt.com/newboard/thread.html?tid=1108752780&th=1242746407&pg=2&tpg=1&add=1

Al B
07/14/09 07:42 AM  
Re: Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture
Joelle,

I recall your problem (and others) in acheiving enough sourness w/ Beliners. The key here in my estimation is having enough Lacto (healthy and ready) for these low gravity brews.

The pitch rate historically should be 4:1 yeast to Lacto, (1 million cells/ml/Plato). I am currently growing up the Lacto to a calculated cell density for 5 gal. Once I determine that, I'll go back and see how much starter volume was used for a referrence. This is alittle more scientific, I know, but if all goes well I'll offer a blend up to those who have had trouble in the past and would like to try it. Hopefully in a few weeks.

Lacto is OK w/ some aeration, Pedio is not. Too start off I would prep Lacto separate from yeast. That way you know if the Lacto culture is thriving (this is probably the issue). Bacteria also need TLC after being in refrige for long periods.

JeffB
07/14/09 10:22 AM  
Re: Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture
First I talked to Patrick Rue, who told me to make my lacto starter in aplle juice, which I did and it turned out nice and sour.

Second, I had about a half gallon extra of my berliner that did not fit in the carboy. I threw it into a growler and then placed the foil covered growler in the warming cabinet of my old school wedgewood oven. The berliner in the growler really soured up much more than the 5 gallons that were in my garage. I am not sure if this was due to the constant warm temp, or some other factor. I think next year when I brew mine I will add a warming element to the larger batch.

Al, I know lacto does better at higher temps, but what about with higher amounts of oxygen, doe sit behave like acetobacter?

I would love to try one of your blends, I have heard only great things!

Al B
07/14/09 10:39 AM  
Re: Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture
Jeff,

Tell Patrick I said howdy next time around........

<< I am not sure if this was due to the constant warm temp, or some other factor.>> Yes, Lactobacilli (after that starter) will grow/ferment faster at higher temp. Optimum temps are upper 70s to 90s and even higher for some strains. When this happens, they will multply faster than yeast.

Most Lactobacilli are "microaerophilic" or "little O2-loving" as opposed to anaroebic (Pedio). They will grow in the presence of O2. They will ferment like yeast not Acetobacter, end-product mostly lactic acid depending on the species.

Most of Berliner producer's in yesteryear fermented in the low 70s, rarely higher than 80F. So in this range, if you pitched (don't quote me on this) 4 X 10^6 yeast, then you want 1 x 10^6 lacto upon pitching. Would upper temps make the German ale yeast estery or fuesolly? Perhaps Patrick can comment there.

tankdeer
07/14/09 11:19 AM  
Re: Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture
When I made my big round of berliner last year, I grew up the lacto (seperate from the yeast) on a stirplate with a heating pad on it. I wasn't able to get an accurate temp but IIRC it was at around 85+. At the time I didn't realize it didn't want so much O2 so it was a little slow, but after a couple days it was nice and tart and when I chilled it there was a noticeable cake of bacteria. I pitched this into my berliner in roughly a 3:1 ratio of bacteria:yeast. (Which is what I had read, and is opposite of your pitch rate Al)

The berliner was fermented warm, but not all that hot. Low 70's I'd say. Jeff, this is the one that I brought to your house and I'm sure you remember it was pretty darn sour. And Al, the one I sent you was actually the WY berliner blend but is just as sour as the one I blended myself. And slightly more complex. I think the slightly elevated ferm temps helped - at least that was the consensus during the berliner swap where mine was easily the most sour.

Joelle
07/14/09 12:00 PM  
Re: Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture
Thanks for the insight everyone. Anyone ever have apparent DMS after a no boil beer? Did it go away with time? Not even sure if that's what I'm smelling/tasting, but it's something like that.

Joelle

tankdeer
07/14/09 12:48 PM  
Re: Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture
Surprisingly, nope, no DMS. I was half expecting it with the no boil, but none.
Al B
07/14/09 01:01 PM  
Re: Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture
Interesting Tank,

From the reading I saw, the 4:1 ratio upon pitch will grow to 1:1 at peak fermentation. I haven't seen that opposite ratio (where did you see that?). I still have your Berliner on ice......

Joelle,

I doubt the DMS would dissipate at this point. Only thing I can think of is a quick cool down to help.

tankdeer
07/14/09 02:06 PM  
Re: Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture
Kris England was talking about it a while back over on the Northern Brewer forum. My understanding is that the man brews a killer Berliner. Since it was my first go at the style I just followed his advice and it seems to have worked quite well.

It seems that a lot of people have had difficulty getting it sour enough and I wonder if pitch rate has something to do with it.

Al B
07/14/09 02:41 PM  
Re: Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture
<<It seems that a lot of people have had difficulty getting it sour enough and I wonder if pitch rate has something to do with it.>>

Yep, and freshness of the cultures. Bacteria in a lag-phase doesn't help much in such a low gravity beer. A 3:1 bacteria:yeast ratio would certainly help compensate.

tankdeer
07/14/09 03:39 PM  
Re: Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture
Hmmm. Hard to say, but maybe Kris came up with that ratio to compensate for the variability in culture freshness.
B-Dub
07/14/09 05:14 PM  
Re: Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture

So is it fair to say the bugs will settle out when the starter is done?

Or is it better to pour the wort and all into your desired beer of souring?

Al B, you said >Bacteria also need TLC after being in refrige for long periods.<

What kind of love are we talking about?

For starters I have also read about using some apple juice mixed with wort. Would that be a good thing to do?

Lastly, my "lab" buddy told me to get the lacto/pedio started 2 weeks before I need it. But Al, you say 2-3 days warm would be sufficiant?

Al B
07/14/09 07:01 PM  
Re: Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture
B-Dub,

1. mostly settle out (but see # 3)

2. that depends on your batch size (I would adhere to the 1L/1bbl volume as per protocol or no more than 175ml/5gal).

3. Same TLC you would give yeast. Remember to grow cells you need amino acids, etc, etc. Usually bacteria grow alittle faster than yeast at room temp and alot faster higher temps. Afterwards they will naturally hit plateau as nutirents are depleted and settle. Again, a lag phase.

4. well for sour beers, its probably OK. But I haven't done it.

5. It would be 1-2 weeks if starting from a small colony subculture to a larger volume of high cell count. But if you obtain a pouch from WY (I should ask them what population that is), it would be a couple of days. Then again, if you are planning on a high pitch into 20 gal. then its a matter of volume + therfore add more time + wort. Then again again, if you are not in a big hurry to get brew out the door a la RR, you don't have to go through the trouble and sing Time is on my side (Mick Jagger)......unless you want to do a Berliner......

and that's enough of my ramblin'

Hope that helps!

Adrian
07/15/09 01:24 PM  
Re: Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture
While on the topic of lactic acid bacteria, does it matter which bacteria one uses? For example, could one make an apple juice or DME starter from yoghurt or cultured buttermilk?
mrb
07/15/09 02:34 PM  
Re: Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture
Just want to chime in and say this is an excellent, informative thread. I think we should try to pull it together for a "definitive BBB Berliner thread," and do some experiemnts.
B-Dub
07/17/09 10:31 AM  
Re: Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture
Al B,

Are you saying not to add more than 175mls of starter wort to 5 gallons?

2. that depends on your batch size (I would adhere to the 1L/1bbl volume as per protocol or no more than 175ml/5gal).

B-Dub
07/17/09 11:52 AM  
Re: Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture
From Wyeast:

Similar to Brouwerij Van Steenberge NV, we are not able to disclose the

origin of this strain. Sorry. Though, I think this strain would work

well for producing a beer similar to Piraat.

Please let me know if you have any other questions.

B-Dub
07/17/09 11:53 AM  
Re: Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture
Wrong post....sorry.
Al B
07/20/09 07:34 AM  
Re: Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture
Adrian,

You can try yogurt/buttermilk bacteria, but there may be mixed results depending what you recover.

B-dub,

You can add a bit more, but you'll be sorta diluting wort w/ starter.

B-Dub
07/23/09 12:18 PM  
Re: Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture
Does anyone know what a pedio or lacto starter should look like? So far it just looks like wort. It has only been 4 days though.

I pitched a packet in 1500mls and have kept it warm.

Thanks

Al B
07/23/09 12:45 PM  
Re: Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture
It should be cloudy in appearance w/ a sour smell.
B-Dub
08/08/09 06:26 PM  
Re: Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture

I just tasted the stater for both the pedio and lacto. Both were sour and the pedio was a little vinegary. I don't expect the starters to taste really good, but they were a allot funkier then expected. Awful really!

Any thoughts on how bad is still okay for this stuff to taste?

The OG was 1020-1030 and both are down to 1000 at 70-80 deg.

wetherel
08/09/09 03:51 AM  
Re: Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture
My berliner weisses always end up very lactic sour, and quickly too. It's either because I don't use any hops until I'm ready to drink it, or because I have a strong lacto culture. I use my sourdough starter, which was originally made from every source of lacto I could find: whole rye flour + whole wheat flour + barley grains + an acidophilus pill: Lactobacillus bulgaricus, Streptococcus thermophilus, Lactobacillus acidophilus, and something else. Whatever is in there is definitely heterofermentative (produces CO2 + alcohol + lactic acid). Are there some strains that produce acetic acid?
Al B
08/11/09 02:23 PM  
Re: Growing Lacto/ Pedio and maintaining culture
<<heterofermentative (produces CO2 + alcohol + lactic acid). Are there some strains that produce acetic acid?>>

Some will produce acetic in small amounts. In sourdough, there might be some Acetobacter or Gluconobacter that is coverting alcohol (assuming there is enough alcohol or yeast in there too.)

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