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Author Replies
smellysell
10/13/09 11:43 PM  
WLP565
I've read up on this yeast quite a bit and repeatedly found people saying to ferment it well into the 80s to make sure it finishes off and not to worry about fusels.

I cranked the fermentation chamber up to 85 right off the bat and the good news is that it finished nice and low. The bad news is that I tasted a hydro sample yesterday and there are definitely some fusels.

I got much higher efficiency on this batch than I had and as a result overshot my OG significantly (1.094). I was aiming for something similar to Foret at ~1.086.

I also did staggered additions of light candi syrup and honey every time the krausen fell.

Any thoughts as to why it ended up hot because I really like the flavor but would obviously like to eliminate this on the next batch.

tbahr
10/14/09 02:55 AM  
Re: WLP565
Start with lower temperature and turn the temperature up when the fermentation is already going for 2-3 days. Should help avoid this problem.
Rob B
10/14/09 09:32 AM  
Re: WLP565
I think most people will tell you to pitch around mid to high 60's then let it ramp as high as the low to mid 90's. I believe most fusels are formed while the yeast count is building, so the initial pitch temp is the most important in preventing fusel formation. Maybe the more scientific ones on here could chime in on this subject.
brewinhard
10/14/09 07:01 PM  
Re: WLP565
I agree with RobB. Pitch mid 60's or so, and let it ride at that temp for at least a couple of days. when you get ready to ramp the temp try to control the rise in temp so you achieve a few degrees per day rise till the end of fermentation. Be sure to hold it at your high temps until fermentation is complete without letting it fluctuate. That could stall the yeast a bit.

I have had better luck with WY3724 in terms of finishing drier. And have heard that the WY3711 is even less finicky.

smellysell
10/14/09 09:36 PM  
Re: WLP565
Ok,I've done that with WLP500 many times with great results, but didn't worry about it with this yeast because I read in many places that it was basically impossible to create fusels with this yeast. Guess I'll go that route the next time.
Adrian
07/19/10 04:20 PM  
Re: WLP565
So I tried to read as much information as I thought possible regarding the infamous WLP565 strain. There is a small minority of people that are convinced that temperature management and mash schedule are the keys to getting this strain ferment quickly and completely.

I failed. WLP565 starter into 5.5 gallons of SG1038 wort made from Vienna malt and .5lb of flaked oats. I went for a step mash. Protein rest, first sugar rest at about 145 for 45 minutes, second rest at 160 for 30 minutes, etc. Mash efficiency was really good.

I pitched at 65 degrees and at 6 hours it was up to 71 degrees. 30 hours later it was at about 75 degrees and had already hit high krausen judging by the ring inside the bucket. Very fast.

I then rigged up a heater to bring the temp way up. 84 by the next morning, 87 by the afternoon, 96 the next day, etc.

My temperature management is crude at best. Basically it stayed up at 96 for about a day and a half, then slow dropped to 87 during the course of a day. Back on the heat it took about a day to get back up and I think it peaked out around 98. Oops.

I've taken two samples so far. One on day 4 and one on day 7. Both registered at about 1012. First sample was cloudy. Second sample was more clear.

I roused the yeast after each sample and just for the hell of it, I tossed in 1/2 tsp of DAP after the second sampling.

How does Dupont do it? How can they ferment in less than a week?

Also, the taste wasn't nearly as peppery or fruity as Dupont. But then, the sample had zero carbonation (which I thought odd. Probably from the heat.). No fusels.

Maybe I should have pitched a little warmer? Heat it up sooner? Extended the mash length? Add yeast nutrient and DAP to the boil? Treat it like wine yeast by degassing and adding nutrients during the middle of the fermentation process?

danger
07/19/10 04:50 PM  
Re: WLP565
dupont uses a blend of yeasts, not just the 3724/565. i've never used dupont (3726 is my fave), but if i did, id probably mix in a bit of a more attenuative yeast (3726, 3711, 3787) or pitch a second, very healthy high krausen starter of the yeasts i just listed once the dupont has slowed/stalled. sucks for repitching but should get the flavor you're looking for.
ErikH
07/20/10 01:44 AM  
Re: WLP565
dupont uses a blend of yeasts, not just the 3724/565 [CITATION NEEDED]

Al? Chad?

danger
07/20/10 08:04 AM  
Re: WLP565
i read it on another forum not too long ago. i know i should know better than to just repeat such things so easily, but i guess it just makes sense considering the finicky nature of 3724/565.
ErikH
07/20/10 09:54 AM  
Re: WLP565
I have heard it in a number of places too, at least as speculation . . .and it is of course a charming and attractive theory, given how hard it seems to be to duplicate the complexity and unique character of this beer. But then I think, are these guys really maintaining a balanced blend of like 3 strains? Or doing some kind of sequential addition? How would that work, sounds very labor-intensive for a small-ish shop.

It would be great if the men with the microscopes could provide some conclusive evidence . . .

danger
07/20/10 10:15 AM  
Re: WLP565
they could probably be repitching the blended slurry a few generations and then blending batches for taste/flavor consistency. i don't think it would be that labor intensive considering there is a major hefeweizen brewery in germany that supposedly never repitches.
MashGordon
07/20/10 10:20 AM  
Re: WLP565
Farmhouse Ales by Phil Markowski states that the brewer at Dupont, Olivier Dedeycker claims that it is (or some believe it to be) a mixed strain of four yeasts including a strain of wild origin. Peter Bouckart also indicated this to me, but that they 'cleaned up' their yeast in recent years.

Some claim subsequent pitchings perform better but I have not seen this.

I've experimented with the multi-strain approach with fairly good results. The key is getting a yeast that will not out compete the Dupont strain. I like the red wine yeast Assmanshausen (AMH) because it has a 48 lag phase that complements the Dupont's fast start. That being said, I've gone to Wyeast 3711 because the results were better in my opinion.

danger
07/20/10 10:36 AM  
Re: WLP565
Assmanshausen? haha. for real?
Adrian
07/20/10 12:37 PM  
Re: WLP565
So... I guess the question becomes, has anyone used WLP565 to fully attenuate a beer in a reasonable amount of time? Has that every happened? Maybe I've misled myself.

Since my current batch is so low in alcohol I don't think it will be a good idea to let it sit for weeks on end. If I don't see a gravity change this week, it might be time to bottle.

I've got a starter of brett from a bottle of Avery 15. Maybe a blend of the two yeasts will work well?

smellysell
07/20/10 03:55 PM  
Re: WLP565
I have a saison in a keg right now I used 565 in that went from 1.051-1.006 in a couple weeks. I started it off and 90 and let it stay there the whole time. No off flavors and it's really tasty. Not sure what happened with the first one that I started this thread because of, but yes, you can use just 565 and get it to fully attenuate.
Adrian
07/20/10 04:44 PM  
Re: WLP565
Good to know. Did you take gravity readings during the 2 weeks or just at the end? I'm curious if the high temperatures helped in the first couple days of fermentation by attenuating more during the active phase. Or perhaps did the heat only help accelerate the slow process during the less active phase?

Did you rouse it? Perhaps I should turn the heat up on mine and check it at the end of the weekend (2 week mark) rather than bottle this week. Right now the beer temp is fluctuating between 78 and 82 degrees.

smellysell
07/20/10 08:11 PM  
Re: WLP565
I only took it at the end, so I can't say for sure, but it was going crazy the first few days.
tankdeer
07/21/10 10:54 AM  
Re: WLP565
It's been a while since I've used it, but I've gotten it to fully attenuate too. I never take gravity readings during fermentation. I don't see a point to it. It just wastes beer and introduces another possibility for infection. And if your beer is not done, DON'T bottle it. Just because it's low gravity doesn't mean it's going to go bad in 2 weeks. Leave it in the fermenter until it's done. It could take 4-6 weeks for that to happen, and that's ok. The beer will still be fine. Keep it warm and rouse it like you were saying.
ChadY
07/21/10 02:00 PM  
Re: WLP565
ErikH, I'm not sure about the blend, although I'd suspect its possible, MashGordon was on top of that one.

I have not visited Dupont so its hard to say, but a brewer such as them might stay with some of the old practices, although consistency would be very hard with multiple yeasts. Most of what I know about Dupont is from Farmhouse ales and some experience while there. In a previous post it was stated that they use a different strain for bottling, was it Garret Oliver who told someone that or Olivier D.?

Ross
07/21/10 09:20 PM  
Re: WLP565
I would advise that all of us pay close attention to what MashGordon has to say. This guy brews fantastic saisons. I speak from my pallet. :-)

I've played around with the 565 several time and even brewed a saison using this yeast with Jamil Zainasheff out at his place in Cali. We couldn't get it to attenuate properly and taste Dupont-like at the same time. Even if you can get this yeast to ferment down in the 1.006 or less range, it has that tangy, lemony, sulfury quality going on that really isn't like the Juicy Fruit, tropical estery quality Dupont actually is. I can say that I hate this yeast with extreme prejudice and simply won't use it. Why risk an 8 hour day and $50 in ingredients to brew with it? And why does White Labs continue to offer this yeast? If White Labs had to refund all of us brewers for every poorly fermented batch made with this yeast they would pull it off of the market. Book it.

Ross
07/21/10 09:33 PM  
Re: WLP565
I can confirm what MashGordon said about Dupont cleaning up their yeast. Peter from New Belgium also mentioned this to myself, Cisco and Steve at the 2007 NHC. Now Cisco and Steve may not remember this because they may have already killed off the brain cells that stored the memory of this chance meeting with Peter but I remain steadfast; I definetly remember! :-)

If you taste Dupont now, it isn't quite as complex and fruity as it once was. What's interesting though, the Foret seems the same but I think they are playing with the malt bill a bit as it's not as orangey as it once was.

I also agree with MashGordon on the 3711. It's a great yeast and you can alter it's profile with your temperature-fermentation schedule.

Tom
07/22/10 09:23 AM  
Re: WLP565
MashGordon, do you like to start 565 / 3724 low (60s to 70s) and then bring it up over a few days or start it hot, already at 80, 90?
ChadY
07/22/10 01:25 PM  
Re: WLP565
I'm with Ross, I'm not a fan of 565.. used it in a few homebrews and it took three weeks to get down to 1.010 with a Pilsner base malt and maybe 5% wheat mashed at 62*C... It didn't keep the fruity aromas it first had and finished with the more spicy character. I had a nice brew, but it wasn't what I was looking for. The flavor and aroma has a lot to do with raw materials. You have to remember as homebrewers there is not the same extraction off your mill that you get on a malt mill. Also the techniques and accuracy of the brew (evenness of heating in the mash tun, many other factors) will change the flavor and aroma profile of the finished beer. With that said Dupont has their strain or strains, whether it is what White labs has or Wyeast... it is hard to make a beer the way they do and it shouldn't be the goal either, but to try to achieve similar qualities which you find appealing I can understand.

So in my opinion I prefer 3711, it attenuates great and I'm pretty sure if you ask MashG he'll tell you a crack team of expert heady tasters prefer it also! 3711 fits with a good mixture of grain bills an brewing techniques. I even brewed a few pilot batches with a 3:1 ratio blend of wyeast 1388:3711 that made some really fantastic beers.

Tom.. it's always best to start ale yeasts in the mid to upper 60's then allow to ramp up after 72 hours (from pitching...). It will give the cleanest profile. But thats my opinion and brewing is all about dogma so you have to take anything anyone says with a grain of salt.

ErikH
07/22/10 10:09 PM  
Re: WLP565
Yes, in attempts over the last 2 years I have had some significant issues with excessive minerally/sulfur-y flavors with this yeast, and strange over-ripe melon flavors. Damn near made the beers undrinkable, but maybe it's just player error on my part . . .

Adrian
07/23/10 10:30 AM  
Re: WLP565
I must be a glutton for punishment. Today I'm brewing another Saison using the second half of the WLP565 vial I purchased a few weeks back.

1 pint starter last night.

6.0 lb Belgian Pilsner

1.0 lb American Pale, 6-row

.5 lb Red Wheat (Briess)

Mashed last night:

125 - 15 min

135 - 15 min

145 - 60 min

160 - 7 hours (dropped to 135 by morning)

165 (sparge)

10g of DAP to boil.

I took a gravity sample of the other batch last night. Still at 1012 (been that way for about a week now). And it tastes like... nothing. Very odd.

For this new batch I think I'll pitch a little warmer. Last time I pitched at 65. This time I'll start around 70 and see what happens.

Adrian
07/26/10 03:15 PM  
Re: WLP565
Still no activity from the first batch. I may check the gravity tonight or tomorrow but I'm starting to think it's done. Each time I've roused the batch I get no activity and it drops clear in a day or so. There is absolutely zero carbonation in solution too.

Maybe I didn't mash correctly, or maybe the combination of 93% Vienna malt and 7% flaked oats is killing the attenuation.

On top of that, I did some quick calculations. The beer started at 1038 and is at 1012. That's an apparent attenuation of 68% and an actual attenuation of 56%. As such, if I were able to remove the alcohol, the specific gravity would read 1016 (since alcohol is less dense than water).

In contrast, a more typical 6.5% ABV Saison that starts at 1055 and finishes at 1005 would have an apparent attenuation of 91%, actual attenuation of 74%, and a residual specific gravity (post alcohol removal) of 1014.

The residual sugar is almost the same. Maybe that means it's finished?

To get to 90% attenuation, my table beer would need to drop to 1004.

So what to do? My amateur brewing instinct tells me that letting this beer continue to sit at +80 degrees in a plastic bucket for weeks on end is not a good idea. Sure the beer may finish out, but I can't imagine it will taste good. I see four options at this point:

1) Bottle it and keep the priming sugar down around 2.5 vols of C02 just in case

2) Buy a keg and rack to a keg. Set it in the corner of the garage and forget about it until September.

3) Add a quart of fruit juice, rouse, and heat back up to +90 degrees for the next week and see if that brings it back to life.

4) Build a 2-4 pint starter of the Avery 15 dregs I built up and pitch that into the beer.

What would you do?

Ross
07/26/10 06:18 PM  
Re: WLP565
1) Bottle it and keep the priming sugar down around 2.5 vols of C02 just in case.

I wouldn't do this because if it continues to attenuate, you'll wind up with bombs.

2) Buy a keg and rack to a keg. Set it in the corner of the garage and forget about it until September.

If you keg it, don't let it sit, just carbonate it and keep it cold.

3) Add a quart of fruit juice, rouse, and heat back up to +90 degrees for the next week and see if that brings it back to life.

The beer will probably turn out pretty insipid. Most likely, it won't attenuate past 1.012.

4) Build a 2-4 pint starter of the Avery 15 dregs I built up and pitch that into the beer.

This is what I'd do. Maybe use the 3711 strain instead. Don't pitch the whole starter, just the yeast. And pitch it high krausen, while it's very active to give it a fighting chance.

Don't be surprised if non

Adrian
07/26/10 06:34 PM  
Re: WLP565
"If you keg it, don't let it sit, just carbonate it and keep it cold."

Unfortunately I can't do that yet as I don't have a kegerator setup. I'm slowly acquiring equipment. I found a broken freezer on Craigslist and I bought my first keg about a month ago (it's filled with a cider I "brewed" 2 months ago).

"This is what I'd do. Maybe use the 3711 strain instead. Don't pitch the whole starter, just the yeast. And pitch it high krausen, while it's very active to give it a fighting chance."

How do I pitch just the yeast if the starter is actively fermenting? Do you suggest racking to secondary with the new starter or mix it all into the primary?

"Don't be surprised if non"

... ?

Ross
07/26/10 11:18 PM  
Re: WLP565
"This is what I'd do. Maybe use the 3711 strain instead. Don't pitch the whole starter, just the yeast. And pitch it high krausen, while it's very active to give it a fighting chance."

How do I pitch just the yeast if the starter is actively fermenting? Do you suggest racking to secondary with the new starter or mix it all into the primary?

I should have been clearer, sorry. Don't take a 4 pint, already fermented starter and pitch the whole thing in the batch. If the large starter has fermented out, decant the wort, add the yeast to a new 1 - 1 1/2 liter starter and pitch it while at it's peak of activity. Your cell count will already be established from making the large starter. Now, you're ramping up the yeast and getting it ready for pitching. If you can be absolutely sure you won't contaminate the batch, you can transfer it off the primary. Don't worry about it if you can't though; it seems that the 565 can sit in the primary for a long time without autolysis. However, I'd like to hear Al B's or some of the other microbiologists' take on this too.

"Don't be surprised if non"

Don't be surprised if none of this works with the desired outcome. I think it's worth a shot though, especially since this is a low O.G. beer. Repitching could dry this thing out.

Adrian
07/27/10 08:34 AM  
Re: WLP565
Well I'll be damned. After a week of inactivity The lil' bastards started working again. Sunday night I moved the bucket to the kitchen counter in preparation for bottling. Instead I come home to find air lock activity. I pop the lid to find a new yeast head starting to forming. I roused again and this morning I find a very thin head of foam completely covering the surface of the beer.

I guess I'll leave it alone and check it again at the end of the week. House ambient temperature is 75-80 degrees which is 10-15 degrees cooler than the makeshift hotbox I was using to ferment the beer initially.

What a wacky yeast strain. I wonder if the late DAP addition helped wake the yeast.

tankdeer
07/27/10 12:14 PM  
Re: WLP565
<<Well I'll be damned. After a week of inactivity The lil' bastards started working again.>>

Yep. That's 565 for ya. Always throwing curve balls.

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