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Manticle
11/27/09 06:24 PM  
Australian Grain brewer seeks advice on making so
Hi,

Sorry if there's an introductory section that I've bypassed and sorry if this is as annoying to you guys as a question about bubbling airlocks might be to many others. I frequent an Australian homebrewing site and was directed here when starting a thread on sour beers. Just looking for a few hints and tips.

I'm still relatively new to the game - been AG brewing maybe 6 months now (patials and extracts for a couple of years before that) but I'm interested in fermenting and ageing some kind of sour beer. Just recently been getting into a few lambics, Normandy and Breton ciders and some fellow brewers Berliner Weisses and love them all.

I'm interested in making something with sour citrus and secondary fermenting with the Roselare strain

The recipe that I'm developing is as follows:

Style: Oud Bruin

Type: All grain

Size: 18 liters

Color: 32 HCU (~16 SRM)

Bitterness: 29 IBU

OG: 1.046

FG: 1.005

Alcohol: 5.3% v/v (4.2% w/w)

Grain: 2kg JW Pilsner

1kg JW Munich I

20g Roasted barley

Mash: 70% efficiency @ 68 deg

Boil: minutes

SG 1.030 28 liters

500g homemade Belgian candi sugar added part way in primary

Hops: 20g Northern Brewer (8.5% AA, 60 min.)

Primary: 1056

Secondary: 3763

The questions I have are about the order and time of parts of secondary and ageing. Once I've reached FG (mashing hotter to leave some residuals) I then add the roselare? Do I need to make a starter or is it fine to pitch straight in?

At what point would I then add my sour citrus blend? Immediately or will the flavour be stripped by the yeast strains? If I wanted to age using oak chips or blocks would I add them after the fruit, with the fruit or before the fruit?

I'll probably be fermenting in smaller plastic fermenters I'll buy specifically for the purpose but ageing in a smaller glass demijohn might make sense.

Sorry if these questions are elementary. It will be a long term project so I won't be rushing anything and I'm more than prepared for the possibility that it will turn out rubbish. Thanks for any advice.

manticle
11/28/09 12:56 AM  
Re: Australian Grain brewer seeks advice on makin
I think I just found most of the answers I need in a link from another thread (Jim Liddil's liddil lambic lesson).

Cheers

brewinhard
11/28/09 08:51 AM  
Re: Australian Grain brewer seeks advice on makin
You can use the Roselare as a primary yeast if desired, providing that it is a relatively fresh pack. Although, in the US that strain came out late last spring so I am guessing any pack you find may be a bit old for a primary fermentation. I recommend to rack the beer to a secondary carboy just after primary fermentation starts to slow a bit with the 1056 yeast. Important to rack into the carboy while there is still some fermentation occurring so as to minimize oxidation before the Rosleare blend begins to work. This is the time to add your oak. I usually boil a bit of water for a few minutes, and as soon as I turn the boil off, I add the oak cubes and let them sit in near boiling water for 15 minutes before draining the excess water off and adding the cubes to the carboy, followed by the beer.

I am a little confused about what your sour citrus blend is. Do you mean the Roselare blend or your own blend? If so, I would add your citrus blend when you add the Roselare. The beer will need anywhere from 10 mos to 18 mos to fully develop the flavors typified by the Roselare blend. Recipe looks good, but you might want some med crystal malts to provide some dextrins for the blend to work on (including a high mash temp as well). I would also reduce the IBU's a bit to 20-25 so the hops don't clash too much with the sourness of the beer.

Al B
11/28/09 09:55 AM  
Re: Australian Grain brewer seeks advice on makin
It sounds like the sour citrus is fruit, but I'm not sure. Curious, but sounds good.
wetherel
11/28/09 10:29 AM  
Re: Australian Grain brewer seeks advice on makin
Which cultures are in the WY 3763 Roselare Blend? Wyeast 3278 has lactobacillus and no pediococcus. Lactobacillus probably won't do well at 29 IBUs, so you might not get much sourness. You could drop your IBUS<10, or add some dregs from commercial sours and hope for pediococcus, or do a sour mash. I would also add the 3763 in the primary, so the lactobacillus has some simple sugars to eat. I have used a starter of the 3763, and added that 1-2 days ahead of time. I don't see much activity with 3763, then I add saccharomyces (eg 1056) after a couple of days, which vigorously eats up the remaining sugar. I also add 3/4 cup of maltodextrin for the bugs. It ended up nicely sour.
manticle
11/28/09 08:05 PM  
Re: Australian Grain brewer seeks advice on makin
Sorry I should have explained further. The sour citrus will be a blend of Ruby red grapefruit and blood orange zest and flesh. I haven't yet worked out the exact proportions as it's a while since I'll need it. My thinking is to put it inside a small grain bag (the type used for minimashes) with the oak so that it's easier to rack later. I would then leave it for 6 or more months.

My concern was that the roselare might strip away the fruit flavours so I was thinking of racking onto the fruit once the beer has fermented and aged with the secondary yeast for a good bit of time.

Going on what brewinhard has suggested though the oak should be added earlier?

I'm happy to drop the IBU to low/mid 20s or even less. I made an assumption (obviously incorrect) that due to the preservative qualities of the hops, they should be present in a higher number. I was also wondering about whether or not to add crystal malt as I saw no point complicating the grist so thanks for that. I'll add some in.

@Wetherel: The roselare yeast is supposedly a blend of sacch., brett. and lactic acid bacteria. Hopefully mashing hotter should lessen the attenuation of the 1056 and leave something for the lacto. Most reading I've done suggests fermenting then adding the bugs but I'm assuming there are different schools of thought on this?

You can tell I'm quite new at this.

Thanks for the replies

dsanborn
11/29/09 11:57 AM  
Re: Australian Grain brewer seeks advice on makin
I brewed with blood orange juice once - I used a liter of juice in an 8 liter batch (2gallons actually). dumped it in at flameout. Pretty sure I fermented with plain ale yeast (i'll check my notes). Some of the folks here tasted it with sour beer swap once.

Very sour/tart taste from the juice, but not sure what a different yeast would do to that. The only time I used fresh citrus zest I put it in at flameout and it added a wonky bitterness that I didn't like - which is why I mostly use 100% juice now (pommegranate is a fav of mine).

I don't worry much about preservation with sour beers, they're going to change and I'd rather not have hop bitters getting in the way of more subtle changes. I do have a stash of old cheesy hops I've used for pseudo lambics.

Welcome to the board. Dig through the archives here and you'll find a treasure of info.

cheers, scamborn

WitSok
11/29/09 03:09 PM  
Re: Australian Grain brewer seeks advice on makin
I've had the pleasure of tasting many wonderful Flander Reds made with this blend as the primary strain. Don't be afraid of using this for primary. Unfortunately my attemps have been very one dimensional - primarily vinegar. I convinced this is due to too much oxygen permiation. I'll no longer use plastic buckes for long term aging of sour beers.
manticle
11/29/09 04:39 PM  
Re: Australian Grain brewer seeks advice on makin
@dsanborn: Did you use only coloured zest or did you use the pith as well? Pith contains many horrible bitter compoounds (sorry if you already know).
wetherel
11/30/09 01:35 AM  
Re: Australian Grain brewer seeks advice on makin
I'm thinking it will probably turn out great no matter what procedure you use.
manticle
11/30/09 03:23 AM  
Re: Australian Grain brewer seeks advice on makin
I am also toying with the idea of soaking the oak chips in port and/or single malt whisky for a month before adding to the ageing vessel. Hopefully the Roselare is available (ordering in the next few days but I believe it's a seasonal release).

The other reason for using the roselare in secondary is that current stocks may not be as fresh so best to get the 1056 to do most of the work and let the funky yeast take its sweet time.

manticle
10/24/10 05:51 AM  
Re: Australian Grain brewer seeks advice on makin
Well it's just under a year since I put this down. Bottled a few weeks ago as I've entered a funked beer case swap here in AU.

Ended up soaking some raisins and various citrus flesh and zest in port about two months out (had previously added whisky soaked oak, pomegranate nd ruby red grapefruit zest and flesh at the beginnng of secondary).

Added some US05 with a small amount of priming sugar and botted into orval bottles. I don't know how much more it will develop but I'm really happy with it. Very little sour: Just a funkiness and complexity of citrus and wood. Really multi-dimensional - some sours I've had have seemed just sour with little else (and some have been amazing) so funk rather than sour was always my aim. have another beer fermenting on the dregs that seems to be developing more sour qualities.

Final recipe I used is in my hard drive that is getting attention. From memory it was actually a dubbel that got some kind of infection that wasn'nt unpleasant tasting so I've no idea if I could replicate it. Too many different things to try to worry about that anyway.

I'll be interested to hear what other funk loving brewers think of it but I'm pretty happy. Cheers for the advice given.

GuitarLord5000
10/24/10 07:33 AM  
Re: Australian Grain brewer seeks advice on makin
Quote="The only time I used fresh citrus zest I put it in at flameout and it added a wonky bitterness that I didn't like "

I've used lemon zest several times with no problems, but the grapefruit zest I used in my last Wit ended up producing an unpleasant bitterness in the beer. I certainly won't be using that again.

Cheers,

Dave

manticle
10/24/10 09:13 PM  
Re: Australian Grain brewer seeks advice on makin
No such issue in mine although it was added to secondary, not flame out.

You guys are making sure to keep any white pith out aren't you?

GuitarLord5000
10/25/10 02:37 AM  
Re: Australian Grain brewer seeks advice on makin
Only zest in mine. Absolutely no pith. I used the zest from one grapfruit in the witbier. The beer has that grapefruit sort of zing (for lack of a better word), but it leaves an unpleasant bitter aftertaste as well. It's not that it's heavily bitter or anything, like I'd imagine you'd get if you used pith. I just don't care for the TYPE of bitterness in the aftertaste.
 
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