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Author Replies
Adamdc
03/26/10 08:09 AM  
Re: Help hopping a saison
Thanks for info guys. Ross, I'm going to take your advice and do the .5 Cascade and the 1.5 Saaz at 10 minutes. IBU is coming out right around high 20's--sounds perfect!

As far as the starter goes---how many days in advance do you guys usually do starters? 48 hours prior to pitching?

Would it be OK if I just leave it in primary for 3 - 4 weeks and then bottle, without using a secondary?

Thanks again

Adam

Ross
03/26/10 11:37 AM  
Re: Help hopping a saison
Hi Adam;

I usually make the starter about 48 hours in advance, put it on a stir plate for 24 hours and then let it sit in the fridge for a day before pitching. Just make sure you decant off the clear wort and swirl the yeast before pitching in the brew.

I think you would be okay letting it sit in the secondary for a few weeks but you probably won't have to. The fermentation should be complete in about 7 - 10 days and you can let it sit a few more days after that before bottling.

I don't like to do transfers but I started to with this yeast because it seems to put out more sulfur than I like and I was concerned that I may be leaving it in the primary too long. I can't say for sure though. The main thing is to make a clean starter.

Al B
03/26/10 09:09 PM  
Re: Help hopping a saison
.....Ross is back with a vengence here......ehhhxcellent.

(as I'm drinkin' a Fantome hiver) ;b

Hey, what about Nelson sauvin hops ? (never used them myself)

Need to git some saison yeasts kickin' now that I'm thinkin

Ross
03/26/10 09:43 PM  
Re: Help hopping a saison
Supposedly, N. Sauvin is real good in APA's. Never tried them myself although others may have.

Speaking of saison yeasts, I'd like to see a blend of the 3711 with 3942 for some fruitiness and dryness. Ever tried that?

Al B
03/27/10 09:15 AM  
Re: Help hopping a saison
The last blend I did was 3726 & dupont from the bottle. Of course, I've used all of these at once too: 3711,3726, Fantome yeast, Dupont & Brewtek saison strains.

<<I'd like to see a blend of the 3711 with 3942 for some fruitiness and dryness. Ever tried that?>>

I didn't think of that. Sounds very fruity......

Ross
03/27/10 02:37 PM  
Re: Help hopping a saison
Al;

I really like the 3711 but it puts out a little too much sulfur sometimes and is not very fruity. Of course it's spicy and peppery as heck which I really love and it's easy to work with too.

I was wondering if a blend was made with a fruitier yeast that it might be a nice combination. Of course, I'm assuming the second yeast would need to be compatible with the 3711's fermentation temps, around 68*F. That's an assumption however.

jaymo
03/27/10 04:20 PM  
Re: Help hopping a saison
I did a red wheat saison recently using 3711. It had great spice notes to it and finished at 1.001! Part of the FG was the fact that I also added 10oz of table sugar after the first week and strapped a heat belt on it at just under 80F. Even up at that temp though, it came out tasting spicy and great!

Since this is a hopping thread, I used a very subtle amount of Styrian Goldings.

Adamdc
03/28/10 07:58 AM  
Re: Help hopping a saison
Is the consensus that sugar is not needed during the boil when using 3711 to aid in drying?
brewinhard
03/28/10 09:23 AM  
Re: Help hopping a saison
Got a super saison in secondary (1072 gravity), mashed at 155 degrees, simple grain bill and 1# cane sugar in the boil. Let it ferment for 7 days at 67 and ramping to 80 degrees or so. Racked to carboy and added a 1/2 oz. french oak and a vial WL Brett B. Last gravity check, the beer was down to around 1001 as well! WTF? I even mashed super high just to leave some residuals for the brett to chomp on. The beer is in the low 9% ABV, has no fusels, and has a fairly silky mouthfeel for such a low FG. So, I don't think that 3711 does need sugar to dry itself out.
ErikH
03/29/10 09:28 AM  
Re: Help hopping a saison
Adam, I would generally agree on foregoing the sugar, esp. for a normal strength 'traditional' Saison recipe and using an aggressively attenuative yeast such as 3711.

You've sparked quite a wide-ranging discussion here that has touched on many different facets of Saison brewing. But for what you are doing (3rd batch, etc.) I do think there's great value to having as much of a 'baseline' as possible. You can always come back and tweak things or explore further variations in the future, but if you keep this first batch very straightforward, I think it will provide a good reference point for you going forward.

tankdeer
03/29/10 02:35 PM  
Re: Help hopping a saison
Ross, good points on all accounts. I guess I had somehow glazed over the fact that it was the OP's 3rd beer. In that case, I full heartedly agree that he (yes, you Adam), should stick to something that many would consider more "traditional".

And I do buy your argument on the BJCP thing. They do need a baseline to be able to judge against, although in general I feel that they miss the mark a lot, and as such I don't enter many competitions. Although I do enter a couple a year. Actually for most styles the guidelines are just fine, but Saison has always been one of those ones that just kinda gets my goat, if you know what I mean.

Lastly, I usually agree that for a "normal" or table strength saisons don't require any sugar at all. Although the fact that we're talking extract here makes me wonder what kind of attenuation Adam should expect. I've never made an extract saison, but I often recommend that extract brewers use at least a small portion of sugar when shooting for a dry beer, to counteract the generally "less fermentable" nature of most extracts.

Ross
03/29/10 04:06 PM  
Re: Help hopping a saison
Tank;

I don't enter brewing comps because of the exact point you make in your post. Saisons always get my goat too. I think if there is one "style" I get wriled up about, it's this one. I remember I was sitting at a table at the 2007 NHC with one of the judges who were judging the saison category and you could have heard my jaw hit the floor with some to the comments he was making. I'm glad there is more than one judge making the call!

I had a chance to have a one on one brew session with a very prominent BJCP judge, also in 2007. He mentioned that Dupont probably wouldn't fair that well in a competition because of how the guidelines were written. Even though, the BJCP lists it as the number 1 example of the style! He has been critical as well of how these beers are judged and I think you can see the differnce in how they are trying to define the paramters. Anyway, it's all good and well because it's nice to see a bunch of us being so impassioned about these brews.

Regarding Adams' extract saison, I'm pretty confident the 3711 will ferment it out without sugar. I had a friend brew an all extract saison with 3711 and he had attenuation down around 1.008 from 1.058. That 3711 is pretty tuff.

tankdeer
03/29/10 06:20 PM  
Re: Help hopping a saison
Ok Adam, you may ignore my incessant ramblings, as Ross has provided anecdotal evidence that you should be fine without any sugar. : )
tankdeer
03/30/10 01:18 PM  
Re: Help hopping a saison
Also, I too have thought that Nelson Sauvin could be interesting in a Saison. I've used them in an APA and it turned out quite nice.
Al B
03/30/10 07:50 PM  
Re: Help hopping a saison
<<Of course, I'm assuming the second yeast would need to be compatible with the 3711's fermentation temps, around 68*F>>

Ross,

Right, though I know Cisco would want to go up to 90F !

Adamdc
04/01/10 07:48 AM  
Re: Help hopping a saison
Not to confuse matters here but what would you guys consider a more traditional hop profile (ie along the lines of a Saison Dupont or some other 'common' saisons)? Please give specifics (amounts and addition times). I've come across so many different saison recipes and the hop profiles are vary greatly.

Thanks

DBear
04/01/10 10:55 AM  
Re: Help hopping a saison
I recently used all Mt Hood for a 1.040 saison at 60, 30, 5 min for around 24 IBU including .4 oz dry hop with Mt Hood. Nice and spicy. Have also used Vangaurd with Sterling with good results.
Cisco
04/01/10 12:06 PM  
Re: Help hopping a saison
Well it just so happens that I currently have a saison fermenting at 90F using the standard Wyeast DuPont strain 3724. I'm patient *^)
Ross
04/01/10 07:45 PM  
Re: Help hopping a saison
"Not to confuse matters here but what would you guys consider a more traditional hop profile (ie along the lines of a Saison Dupont or some other 'common' saisons)?Please give specifics (amounts and addition times). I've come across so many different saison recipes and the hop profiles are vary greatly."

Well, you've come to the right board Adam. But what you're asking could take several pages. Here's my take:

The hop type selected depends on the yeast type first of all. 3711 really plays well with Saaz while the Dupont strain works better with Styrians and EKG....although I've tried both yeasts with the various hops with good results except for and I must say, I'm not crazy about what Styrians does with the 3711. It's just kind of weird and overpowering.

Another thing, when using EKG pellets, really, really, really examine them for brown discolorations and an ash-or cigar like smell. Cisco and I figured out that pelletized EKG sometimes put out this horrible ash like aroma and taste. If you have your options, choose EKG flowers instead.

Most Belgian brewers have simple recipes, a bittering hop addition and a flavor/aroma hop addition. Most of them also like to mix two hop types together for bittering although I personally like single hop variety beers just as much.

For TRADITIONAL hops, combine English types with St. Goldings and combine Saaz with German varities as a starting point. Tettnang and Hallertauer go very well with Saaz.

The amount Cisco recommended is an excellent amount to hop your beer with. Here's another thing....when in doubt, add more flavor/aroma hops. You can't screw up a saison if you add more flavor/aroma hops. Just make sure you compensate for the IBU's by backing off on your 60 minute, bittering addition. Hopping your brew at 10 minutes before the boil end gives a pretty nice balance between flavor and aroma.

Don't mess with spices until you learn to brew a good, hoppy, traditional saison. You can really screw up a perfectly good brew with spices. When you are ready to try some spiced versions, enlist the help of Cisco as well as the others on the board who have done ALOT of spiced beers.

There is more to the story but read Markowski's book. It will give you some good starting points as well.

Check is in the mail...:) Ross

Thanks

Seanywonton
04/02/10 04:34 PM  
Re: Help hopping a saison
"Not to confuse matters here but what would you guys consider a more traditional hop profile (ie along the lines of a Saison Dupont or some other 'common' saisons)?Please give specifics (amounts and addition times). I've come across so many different saison recipes and the hop profiles are vary greatly."

I did one recently sort of in line with Dupont on the malt and hops at least. I used about 50/50 east kent and styrian goldings. I hopped it to 28 IBU but I would take it up next time to 32ish. My schedule was a 60 minute bittering addition, and a 2 oz. flame-out addition for 6 gallons which I let sit for about 10 minutes while I hooked up the plate chiller. I think other than being a little low on bitterness, the hop flavor/aroma amount was pretty close to Dupont. So I guess I'm advocating a single bittering addition followed by a fairly large flame-out addition for a fairly hoppy, but not overboard saison.

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